Poor as churchmouse in shophouse
February 25, 2008
More photos just added
Helen Ang
________________________________
When someone mentions ‘church’, what do Malaysians imagine the House of God to look like?
Several of the pictures you see on this page appeared in my Malaysiakini article of March 2006. The photos were shot in PJ, Sungai Buloh and Cheras. It’s been two years and I’ve not been living in the Klang Valley since, so I don’t know if these heart-wrenching sights are still greeting the worshippers.
The River of Christ sign points to the factory-like building in the next photo. Charis is a Christian centre. The church atop the bank was in Penang. The bank has since moved. I’ve not noticed if Petra Baptist is still there. It was on a second-floor shoplot after all and hardly calls attention to itself.
The issue of church-shophouses recently resurfaced in Subang Jaya, thanks to DAP’s vigilant Parliamentarian Teresa Kok in highlighting the worrisome draft local plan.
Datuk Lee Hwa Beng who is contesting the Kelana Jaya Parliamentary seat was Subang Jaya state assemblyman. He has unequivocally stated that the municipal council has not taken action against any church for having their premises in shophouses or factories. Hence there is no necessity for any churches to apply for any permits.
I wonder if the churches in Subang Jaya, an area I’m unfamiliar with, look anything like the many ‘pretend churches’ I’ve seen in Petaling Jaya and Penang – which though not recorded on this page nevertheless belong to the same family of unorthodox design.
And I don’t know what to make of such an untravelled Christian Datuk and his unfathomable conception of church architecture. He makes his blasé statement as if it is the norm in civilised countries to conduct the Lord’s service in “shophouses or factories”.
Not only is Lee abysmal in his sense of aesthetics, he’s also ignorant of history and current affairs. He’s not too bad at Math though; he can count. Last October he said, in multi-racial parties “the majority of the members will consists [sic] of Malay only”.
“This means nominations for councillors at municipal levels, candidates for State and Parliament will be decided by predominantly or all Malay committees at all levels.”
His utmost concern appears to be that Chinese are nominated for the coveted jobs. Are they? In the last Cabinet, there were 32 Ministerial seats. Under the winning BN formula, four low-priority portfolios were given the Chinese. At the time when Parliament was dissolved, Ong Ka Ting held two Ministries, or 50% of the cake.
My two Malay friends helped take these pix on this page, so I for one find it difficult subscribe to Lee’s logic that Malays can’t transcend race.
Here’s a history lesson for Lee: In the 1969 general elections – the one alluded to by his counterpart Chew Mei Fun – MCA lost 20 seats out of the 33 that it contested. Their party prevailed only in constituencies with a strong Malay representation.
To paraphrase Lee’s words into my own question: “What is the irony of the existing BN tradition of quotas?” Will Christian voters tell him please?
February 25, 2008 at 3:43 pm
he had make it clear. he needs UMNO coz without which chinese like him wont get to sit in the legislature. he is now drolling big time. thats the kind of opportunist you will get from MCA, and for the matter BN. Its just RACE, RACE, and RACE.
what the shit. Gonna vote for Dr Lo Lo this time round. enough of the race shit from BN.
February 25, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Time for Christians to vote against the BN or they may not have a church to go to (esp. those without permits). Too many religious intolerants around.
Even if they make promises now not to close churches w/out permits, their word cannot be trusted.
just n free,
Time for all Malaysians to vote against BN or they may not have a country to call their own.
February 25, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Salam Tuan Lawyer Haris Ibrahim,
Dengan izin Tuan Punya Blog.
Kepada para pengunjung Blog yang ingin melihat foto-foto hakmilik peribadi “KEMPEN DIHARI PENAMAAN CALON BAGI PARLIMEN TITIWANGSA, WILAYAH PERSEKUTUAN, KL.” boleh masuk ke blog saya tanpa sekatan.
Pertembungan diantara BA yg diwakili PAS dan BN diwakili pelh UMNO. Pelbagai aksi foto menarik boleh dilihat diblog ini. Dan pihak kami akan terus ‘upload’ foto-foto disekitar kempen pilihanraya ke 12, 2008 dari masa ke semasa. Insha’allah.
Bagi Parlimen Titiwangsa, PAS mecalonkan tokoh muslimat yang dikenali ramai iaitu Dr. Lo’Lo’ Mohd Ghazali 51. Manakala BN, pula diwakili oleh Dato’ Aziz Jamaludin Mohd Tahir 54. Tempat Pencalonan Sekolah MenengaH Aminudin Baki.
Pada hari penamaan calon semalam suasana agak meriah, dan tiada ketegangan berlaku.
Wassalam.
http://theindiestory.blogspot.com
February 25, 2008 at 8:36 pm
The YB is not getting my vote.
To me the answer he has given is not a clear and unqualified answer. Why do churches end up in shops and old factories in the first place? Building approvals for NEW churches are almost unheard of. Representatives who don’t fight for the bisic rights of the citizens, (in this case, the right to worship without unnecessary hassle) are not doing their work.
February 25, 2008 at 10:26 pm
it’s been a hidden fact for decades (yes, decades) that churches failed to obtain permits to build new church buildings, and unwillingly resort to source for new sanctuary through “shoplot/factory” method.
February 25, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Dear Haris,
Datuk Lee has earlier responded to the Sun article in his website.
I have written taken the liberty to write on his comment page asking him to explain on his 1 liner defense. He has neither replied nor posted my comments.
You can go to the address below where I reproduced it on my blog:
http://myop101.blogspot.com/2008/02/sun-versus-hwa-beng-you-decide.html
February 25, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Is there a traditional looking church in Subang Jaya? I think not. Most of it are in shophouses.
February 26, 2008 at 1:24 am
Lee Hwa Beng – serving MPPJ & MPSJ for more than 10years
————–
-For Wangsa Baiduri in SJ, Club House of Residents been re-approved to change into an Hotel,
Even that project has been raped for more than 20 years
No facilities for Townhouse but maintain charge remained and Condo changed to Apartment without facilities!!
-manipulating Town & Country Planning Act!
-cannot even safeguard a Town Park throughout his time in MPPJ/MPSJ
the reserved land for Town Park was wrongly issued with a titles to Developer “guiding” him to a non-sense 1500 residents objection hearing on 15.7.2007!
Manipulating approvals via MPSJ appointed JPK
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=17992&page=1&pp=15&highlight=ria+park
-58.3 of Reserved Land for Subang Jaya had gone nowhere while some of them are having Housing Projects by privates!!
Abandoned Newgate project for years and after many years of reactivating taken more years with more from purchasers and still with a lot of hanky-panky!!
http://hwabeng.org.my/taxonomy/term/19
http://www.usj.com.my/forum/Forum1/HTML/001492.html
Kelana Jaya was part of MPPJ while Lee Hwa Beng had been councilor
How many damages had Lee Hwa Beng done during his last periods in MPPJ/MPSJ？
Should Kelana Jaya People forget?
February 26, 2008 at 6:46 am
Helen,
That I know of, the Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists and other older Christian denominations like to build churches with specific architectural characteristics.
The new age Evangelical Christians use any room or building available to them. Their view is that the Church is the congregation. The building is nothing.
Am I mistaken? In this light, is it correct to take the presence of these churches in shoplots and residential properties as a sign of deprivation?
I have not heard them complaining. Maybe they only do that in private. Perhaps I am taking their fortitude and creativity for granted.
February 26, 2008 at 9:07 am
SV Singam
“Am I mistaken? In this light, is it correct to take the presence of these churches in shoplots and residential properties as a sign of deprivation?”
I agree with you that we do not need fancy buildings and surroundings when showing our faith. This applies to any religion. Thus we’ll find Christians are happy to attend ‘church’ in a 1st/2nd floor shoplot just as we will find Muslims who will simply lay their prayer mats or carpet in a desert in the direction they must be aligned.
I think the issue is the intolerance and the unfair treatment BN has for other religions. I just wonder if a mosque would have been torn down under the same circumstances the Hindu temple was. In Malaysia you’ll find a mosque in every village, which is a good thing for Muslims, but will you find a church or temple built by the State in areas where there are many Indians or Chinese, respectively?
I do not know of any application for building a church that has been turned down but I would certainly like to hear from anyone on this. However, there have been instances where Chinese temples who were asked to tone down the size of their statues of Kuan Yin (Goddess of Mercy) because the overall height of the temple should not be higher than certain state buildings or structures, or something like that. If I’m not mistaken, the Kek Lok Si was affected by such a ruling. It’s how ridiculous that things have become that irks me.
February 26, 2008 at 9:53 am
I will have to agree with SV singham. Fact is there are so many independent churches these days. Some just sprout out out of nothing. Others sprout out because one disenchanted priest or pastor of a regular church thinks he can survive on his initial flock of followers to then slowly grow. What is rental for a shop floor to start with? I know of course tehre is at least one of the traditional churches that has as its church in the middle of a block of shop houses somewhere in Perak. There are a lot of independent churches these days and sadly rather than the flock that is identified to be the church, it is the place the flock to to meet is what seems defined to be the church. And with independent churches with just the leader keeping them together, how does one recognise the “legal entity” that represents the body of the church anyway? So these guys set up companies or register as Societies with the Registrar of Societies. Of course registering as Societies is harder.And so many operate as companies! All these complicate things of course. And under what “right” can a “company” or a “society” demand that land be allocated for them to build a religious institution like a church? I can understand and easily accept those that come under the umbrella of Catholics, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist, 7th Day Adventist, Lutheran, Pentecostal. There are a lot of others of course which are a dime a dozen, but what happens when the charismatic leader who keeps them altogether dies or runs away with the money? Unfortunately the pictures posted of those churches represent a lot of these independents, and they certainly don’t help.
February 26, 2008 at 10:15 am
This is strictly my own opinion in response to SV Singam.
fyi, there are many catholics, methodist, anglicans and other denomination that operate in shops and factories. The reason is simple, it is impossible to build a new church even in private land for the past few decades. Approval will never be granted. All the church building that we are seeing right now are built before merdeka days.
“…In this light, is it correct to take the presence of these churches in shoplots and residential properties as a sign of deprivation?…”
While it is not a direct deprivation, it is only fair for us to have the freedom to build our places of worship.
“…The new age Evangelical Christians use any room or building available to them. Their view is that the Church is the congregation. The building is nothing….”
Yes, I would like to think that most christians think in that way. The congregation is the Church.
“….I have not heard them complaining. Maybe they only do that in private. Perhaps I am taking their fortitude and creativity for granted….”
I do complain. But most of us have learned to move on and to turn our vision on the more significant part of Lord’s work. Yes, the church is small, yes it is difficult having to cramp a few hundred people in a shoplot, yes, wedding ceremony will be difficult, yes wake service will be difficult if it is at second floor, but if we look at the bright side, there are plenty advantages. The congregation will be closer to each other, it’s harder to ignore each other, the congregation cannot grow beyond what the shop lot cannot accomodate, money will channeled to various useful ministries instead of building fund, etc.
February 26, 2008 at 10:25 am
Paul,
Without wanting to cast judgement on any of these entities, whether mainstream or independent, it would be better to stick with the issue of ensuring that religious groups have the right avenues and access to practice their faiths respectively.
Most of the independent churches do not have the luxury of having state backing, i.e. Vatican or diocesan sponsorship. They exist by faith.
Whether these came about due to disillusioned or disenchanted priests/pastor is not for you or myself to judge. You reap what you sow and are known by your fruits. Sure, some turn out to be cheats, but cheats exist everywhere, be it traditional or independent.
I don’t think that these churches are envying huge plots of land, architecture etc..you are right in saying that the church is the body, not the building. Therefore, all they may want is a place to house that body..nothing fancy, but adequate and without hassle.
optimuz,
Well said
February 26, 2008 at 12:39 pm
SV Singam,
You have noted: “Their view is that the Church is the congregation. The building is nothing.”
Yes, so I’ve heard. My ‘newer’ denomination Christian friend said more or less the same to me on this issue, i.e. when the exiled Jews were wondering in the desert, worship was in a tent.
So do we take it that some Christian congregations in Malaysia appear to be outcasts too?
February 26, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Please don’t get me wrong. I am well aware of the problems Christians are having with approval to build a place of worship. The Shah Alam Catholic Church issue is well known.
I had not encountered Catholic, Methodist or any other church groups who were congregating in shoplots. But I did encounter several New Age Christian groups who appeared to be quite comfortable with the premises they had access to.
And that is my point exactly. We cannot assume that, just because a group of worshippers meet in a house or shoplot, they have been disenfranchised. If that was their choice, power to them. If they had no choice, shame on the BN government.
Of course, if your point is that the government should fund all of these Church groups to build their own places of worship, that is another matter altogether.
February 26, 2008 at 5:17 pm
The Church, in its strictest sense of the word, really in the “body of Christ”, which in turn is really the congregation of believers. Indeed, the congregation would want to have a place to congregate! Hence, the church premises, the church building really is a home to the congregation.
Whilst the building may be of secondary importance, I am sure all Christian Congregations like any individual would prefer a more spacious home. Well, as all would know, it is near impossible to buy a piece of land to convert it to a place of worship!
The use of shoplots, factories etc are not choices made by most congregations of believers. Rather, for lack of alternatives, today’s Christians are not in exile in the wilderness and do not need to meet and worship in tents. Our “tents” are now, factory lots, shophouses etc. etc.
Christians wanting to get married can hardly find a church that “befits” the sacrament of marriage. Many end up in hotels and most just resign to go ahead with the shoplots and factories. Although at the end of the day, a church building is just a building. However, there are BUILDINGS and there are buildings.
All communities, including the Christian communities too would like to be proud of their architectural heritage and display them. We too would like to be able to have some space to run around and stretch our legs a little (for the right purposes!) and not remain like a churchmouse.
Alas, the roaming LMNs, policy makers and the likes have seen to it that this does not materialisze. Indeed, we have been complaining for too long but only in private. It is time that Christians ought to “COMPLAIN”.
Helen, I hope along with me, Christians “WILL TELL” LHB and more importantly BN of the irony of the quotas, and that through the ballot box. Will ALL BANGSA MALAYSIA tell LHB and BN too? Please do.
February 26, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Travic, well said. I’m with you.
The laws should be clear about the construction of religious facilities and should apply EQUALLY to all religions.
Funding should be made available EQUALLY
February 26, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Guess what? he did write to the Sun (and he published it in his web). This is what he wrote:
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Dato Lee
Date: Feb 23, 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: LETTER TO THE EDITOR
Editor
The Sun
Dear Editor
I refer to the recent article that appeared in your paper quoting me that all churches need to apply for permits from MPSJ.
I wish to clarify that MPSJ has never asked any church to apply for permits. MPSJ has also not taken action against any church for having their premises in shophouses or factories. Hence there is no necessity for any churches to apply for any permits.
I hope this clarification will put to rest all the concerns on this issue.
Thank you.
Lee Hwa Beng
MPSJ Councillor
—————–
Do you feel the air being cleared? I still see a thick smog emitting from his e-mail reply.
Hence I decided to write another comment cum letter here to “demand” for answers. You can read it here:
http://myop101.blogspot.com/2008/02/sun-versus-hwa-beng-you-decide-round-2.html
My hope is Kelana Jaya voters please wise up to the antics of BN members.
February 26, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Dear SV Singam,
“I had not encountered Catholic, Methodist or any other church groups who were congregating in shoplots. But I did encounter several New Age Christian groups who appeared to be quite comfortable with the premises they had access to.”
On the contrary, “older” Christian denomination or “new age” Christian denomination both use shoplots as place of worship. Though I am not a Methodist, I personally knew Methodists who uses shoplots as church. If you need proofs, do check out Taman Paramount PJ, there’s one Methodist there in 2nd floor of a shoplot. Another one in Taman Sentosa Klang, there’s one Methodist in 2nd floor too. How about the Methodist in Seri Kembangan? The list is, unfortunately – endless. Same applies to Anglican, Presbyterian, Brethren, and more.
“And that is my point exactly. We cannot assume that, just because a group of worshippers meet in a house or shoplot, they have been disenfranchised. If that was their choice, power to them. If they had no choice, shame on the BN government.”
If there’s a choice, little choose to meet in shoplot. It is the policy implementation in Malaysia that resulted in the blooming of shoplot churches.
“Of course, if your point is that the government should fund all of these Church groups to build their own places of worship, that is another matter altogether.”
Fund or not is one issue. Giving permits to build a church is another issue. It is never a policy to local government in giving approvals to churches in building new churches (either in religious land or private land). For instance, my church took nearly 10 years in obtaining an approval for church extension project.
The local government also enforces many policies that discourages churches in extending their buildings. I’m not sure you heard this before or not – weird rulings such as “Church building cannot be taller than the local mosque” is a mystery difficult to comprehend.
February 27, 2008 at 12:45 am
I was just thinking… “If” I want to open a place for all Malaysian Atheist in the Klang Valley to meet up for social activities, networking, sharing, etc… do you think they would give me a piece of land or shop lot to operate from? I wonder what would most likely happen…
“No” without any reason, No with a good enough reason according to some laws in Malaysia, laughed at & totally ignored, citizenship removed & all these beruk accusations by BN & the MSM, “Black Bagged”?
February 27, 2008 at 5:07 pm
I echo what Kiawin said.
As a Methodist, I do know that some of our sister churches have an almost zero chance of converting a piece of private land into a church (of course, we can never underestimate God’s power to change things but this is besides the point I am trying to make here).
As Christians, though the congregation is the church, the functionality of the place of worship plays an important part to enable the church to grow. Let’s take one of those pictures above as an example. You have a church on the 1st floor of a shoplot and perhaps, it can cater to say 80 worshippers. Then, you also want to cater for a Sunday School for the kids whilst the adults are worshipping. And Bible classes for those who want to learn the Word of God. And run seminars for the congregation. Quite obviously, one floor alone is insufficient. And believe me, believers are more keen to reach out to others so as to grow the church than to keep it at status quo. So, when the place is filled to the brim with new worshippers, the church has to go through the hassle of finding another shoplot which is bigger to accommodate its people.
It is indeed frustrating when one sees the inequal treatment accorded to the building of houses of worship for the muslims vis a vis the non-muslims. I won’t even ask for funding from the government to build a church or temple. Just be fair to allocate private land for such purposes near residential areas just like how land is allocated for mosques.
March 1, 2008 at 5:18 pm
It is confusing!
i refer to the letters posted or highlighted by myop101.blogspot.com
BEFORE election – that Datuk say must have church permits
DURING ELECTION FEVER – he now say no need permits.
AFTER ELECTION – ?????
So we christians, what to do lah?!
March 1, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Folks,
I realise that I have erred in my assumption that people convert shoplots or houses into churches because having a building is not important to them. My apologies to anyone who is offended by my remarks.
I have never doubted that getting a permit to construct a place of worship is next to impossible. Ditto for adding an extension. As is by now well known, the Christians are not the only ones impacted by the UMNO zealots.
This why we need to get the message out to everyone that a vote for Barisan Rakyat is a vote for your future.
Having said all that, I would like to maintain that, even after government policies on places of worship have been liberalised, we will still see shoplots and houses used by religious groups, Christian churches included.
At that time, we will know that it was by choice, and that when their congregations grow large enough and they have sufficient funds, they are likely to put up a building.
I look forward to that future.