By Helen Ang

 

____________________________

 

If anyone cares to give Holy smoke! (First edition) a second reading, they’ll find that my post vis-à-vis Fitna and Schism were as much about the superficiality of mainstream media and blogs.

 

Some discerning participants managed to delve below the shallowness conditioned in Malaysian mass thinking, and pertinent input came from Paul Warren and Barry respectively: “There is a presumption here that [Geert] Wilders is a Christian; Has anyone determined of what faith Wilders is or if indeed he professes any?” and “Most angmohs I have come across are non-Christians and typically only attend church a few times in their lifetime, including the funeral service.”

 

The mistaken assumption in Malaysia that whites must be Christian is likely conditioned by our own ‘special’ fiat that Malays cannot be other than Muslim.

 

I myself have been presumed Christian because my mom chose the Anglicized name ‘Helen’ which is actually of Greek, not Christian, origin. And the Greek pantheon of gods was pagan.

 

The Malaysian stereotypical thinking led detractors to say I was writing Malaysiakini articles unfavourable of Islamization because I was Christian, which I’m not. Then in this forum, we have Singam who contributed the following comment: “Fitna and Schism are merely continuations of the Crusades. The enmity that began back then continues till today.” His reasoning is too simplistic if not flawed.

 

Unless Wilders has bared his soul to the Press and explicitly confessed to be a Christian, who is to say if he is practising and how can we assume he was motivated by religious beliefs?

 

Research bears out Barry’s observation on declining church attendance in Europe. These are the official statistics from the Netherlands census bureau. The last time they checked in 1997, some 14% of the Dutch said they worshipped in church at least once a week whereas 66% responded “hardly ever”.

 

And here’s a recent survey by Global Peace Index in cooperation with the Economist Intelligence Unit 2007 which named Norway, New Zealand and Denmark as the Top 3 most peaceful countries globally.

 

In Norway – literacy score 100, income rank second highest in the world and gender equality ranking 2nd as well – only 32% “believe there is a God”. In Denmark, only 31% say “they believe there is a God” although a majority, like Malaysians, are registered at birth to a state religion.

 

The percentages in Sweden and Finland believing in God are 23% and 41%. In New Zealand, some 35% have no religion, according to the country’s 2006 census. Yet Malaysians continue to harbour an erroneous perception of Christianity as wholly Western, when in fact the new hyper churches are mushrooming in South Korea.

 

Meanwhile, in Wilders’ homeland The Netherlands, according to the 2005 Eurobarometer Poll, 34% of Dutch citizens responded “they believe there is a god”, whereas 37% “believe there is some sort of spirit or life force” and 27% “do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force”. The CIA World Factbook records in 2002 that 41% of the Dutch have no religion.

 

Therefore is a retaliatory attack on Christianity for Fitna specifically hurtful to Wilders and the Dutch, or is it just plain misguided?

 

A similar lack of awareness led Edmund to comment: “I guess Helen Ang has never been to a bombed out abortion clinic and seen first hand what Christian fundamentalism can do.” True, I’ve not researched such attacks but I believe they occurred in the States not Europe, and the total number of murders over the last 35 years since Roe v. Wade (1973) is seven.

 

Another comment comes from Samad: “Why condemn the action [of making Schism, ‘the Bible version of Fitna’] more than the cause of it.”

 

The point I’m bringing up is poor discursive skills reflecting a lack of critical thinking, such as Edmund’s misplaced comparison of radicalism, Singam’s missing link theory of continuing Crusades or the Saudi blogger’s mistaken idea that his anti-Christian video clip is socking the Dutchman an eye for an eye. The ‘cause’ of Raed AlSaeed’s action is really a gap in logic, paralleling the one which led the War on Terror to respond to 9/11 by invading Iraq.   

 

The current scenario in Western Europe is more relevant if we are to consider Wilders’ context, and his concern expressed in Fitna is the creeping Islamization caused by immigration, a topic of considerable debate in the Netherlands and across the continent. As Parliamentarian, Wilders’ is a lawmaker and stricter immigration policies his political platform.

 

Wilders’ rhetoric is that illiberal culture imported along with the fast-growing Muslim immigrant population would undermine the Dutch way of life. The liberties that he mentions in Fitna as being threatened by Muslim mores are not supported by contemporary Christian teachings either, such as gay relationships. His friend Theo Van Gogh – whose Muslim killer shot him several times, then slit his throat from ear to ear, and after that pinned a letter to his stomach with the bloodied knife – is known to have had little regard for Christian values.

 

‘Respect for human life’ was the most frequently mentioned personal value in the Netherlands at 46% compared to the ‘important place of religion’ at 31%, reported Eurobarometer in a survey released Dec 2006 for the European Commission.

 

Holy smoke Part 1 was a Hartal MSM article arguing that Malaysian newspapers dumb down their readership through one-dimensional, sanitised writing, which precludes this sort of discussion on faith issues.

 

MSM’s politically correct propensity to invoke Tourism Malaysia-type ‘tolerance’ is bollocks, but rather than I cover old ground, please refer to an earlier post ‘Save yourself from Sun-stroke’, including my further expositions in its Comments section. http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/03/24/save-yourself-from-sun-stroke/

 

 

27 Responses to “Holy smoke! They’re Godless in the West”

  1. raj raman Says:

    holy smoke,finaly i knows now from your data release i am not the only one telling the world.

    Raj Raman;RELIGION MY PROBLEM TO ANWSER TO GOD WHEN TIMES DUE.MEANWHILE I MIGHT HAVE ALOTS OF HUMAN DO GOOD THINGS IN LIFE RATHER THAN KILL EACH OTHER IN THE NAME OF GOD.

    i BETTER ENJOY MY CIGAR NOW,TO MANY HOLY SMOKERS IN MY SHOES.

  2. raj raman Says:

    Soorry,i still beleived in god,but just confused a bit.

    To many religion said you go to hell if not one of their followers.So i want to be neutral.At least the god will judge me by my deeds.at least i am taking 50% chances of not siding any religions.

    To,singam,
    what do think about my stand on religion?

  3. su Says:

    Just wanted to leave a note, saying that in NZ (where I am now), the majority are Christians. When they say that they “have no religion”, it just means that they do not relate closely to the church, do not attend catholic or christian schools, etc etc. And the contribution to the 35% who “have no religion” are probably people who hail from Asia, given the high rate of immigration from Asian countries.

    Other than that, you have a point.

    Michelle


  4. Some are not godless, just they worship and serve a creature.
    As Haris has a conscientious problem printing my comments in full.
    May I suggest to read from my blog: http://worldmessenger.blogspot.com/
    Not for faint-hearted or scoffers.

  5. max Says:

    I just don’t get it – why the big Moslem hooha on Fitna to the extent of issuing a kill verdict on Wilders. And yes, i’ve seen the short video, he’s just reenacting certain verses to coincide with what actually perpetuated by the moslems. In short, he’s just showing facts as are…

    Why can’t the moslems retaliate with a truth version to rebut what is mentioned in FITNA? Unless of course, the moslems can’t.

  6. Hkengmacao Says:

    Haris,

    This article shows us that ‘perception’ is a very dangerous thing. If perception comes out to be ‘correct’, then fine, if not, then can cause lots of havoc.

    I personally don’t believe the existence of God. If God is so passionate and powerful, by right this world should be heaven, should be ‘no suffering, no illness’.

    This is why, whatever one’s belief, let him / her belief, don’t meddle, and should be ‘apolitical’. Leave him / her alone so far as religion is concerned.

    But, in Malaysia, things are more complex here since the race of ‘Malay’ is defined in the Constitution. I guess ‘Malay’ is the only race to have defination in a Constitution. So, the perception of Malay is a Muslim is always ‘correct’ even though it can be ‘wrong’.

    You agree with me, Haris?

  7. pavlova Says:

    Thank you, Haris, for mentioning NZ!

    Yes, we are in fact not a very Christian country. The only fact that NZ is somewhat more Christian than others is that every business is forced to close on Easter Friday and Sunday. Some businesses are allowed to open ( with special permission, but they’ve got to pay their workers 1.5 times more).
    In fact there has been debate that this Easter ban should be lifted at some stage, to allow businesses to profit, but public outcry has kept that in place, for now.

    Our literacy rate has in fact dropped to No. 26 from No.1 in world rank.

  8. pavlova Says:

    btw, michelle, i don’t know which part of NZ are you in, but majority of NZ do not believe in Christianity.
    In fact, a lot has turned to more “alternative” worship, like Paganism etc.

    Even though there are a lot of migrants coming into the country, but I do not believe the migrants alone can come up to 35% of the population that “do not believe in religion”.

    The most “Christian” part of NZ is Palmerston North, and that population is only 75,000.

    Btw, if they “do not relate closely to church” I don’t see how you can call that Christian.
    That is just Christianity by name…

  9. Surind Says:

    Agnosticism Fails In Practise (Russell’s Teapot) & All Are Atheists About Most Gods That Past Societies Believed In, Some Just Go One God Further!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07JvzfO0vOk

    “We may define “faith” as the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of “faith.” We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence.” [Bertrand Russell]

    “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” [Benjamin Franklin]

    “It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.” [Wiliam K Clifford]

    “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” [Stephen F Roberts]

    “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” [Delos B. McKown]

    “Few nations have been so poor as to have but one god. Gods were made so easily, and the raw material cost so little, that generally the god market was fairly glutted, and heaven crammed with these phantoms.” [Robert Ingersoll, The Gods]

    “Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.” [John Adams]

    “The foolish reject what they see and not what they think; the wise reject what they think and not what they see.” [Huang Po]

    “The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.” [George Bernard Shaw]

    “Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.” [Richard Dawkins]

    “Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” [Thomas Jefferson]

    “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” (Stephen F. Roberts)

  10. blueboy Says:

    Globalisation has propagated the population of agnostics/atheists, and this is not just confined to the West. However, if God is truly God, He is a real underachiever. Look at the mess He left in this world!
    No, I do not believe in God anymore, but I do marvel at Nature!
    Sadly, I belong to the minority group which in this country is truly voiceless, disconnected and I would say, intellectually oppressed.
    But then again, most of us don’t really think about Godly matters most of the time, do we?

  11. Singam Says:

    Dear Raj Raman,

    What I think of your stand on religion should not matter at all. It should be about your personal relationship with whatever you choose to believe.

    As far as organised religion is concerned, there is ever the danger expressed in Surah 6:117 (Pickthall)

    If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah’s way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess.

  12. Singam Says:

    Pavlova wrote “Btw, if they “do not relate closely to church” I don’t see how you can call that Christian.

    I know of many Buddhists and Hindus who identify themselves as such on forms but rarely ever take part in any ceremonies or go to a temple on any regular basis. Similarly, there are turbaned Sikhs who only go to a Gurudwara if there is a wedding or something like that.

    I also used to know Christians who labelled themselves thus for the purpose of official documents but rarely went to church. I have lost contact with them so I can’t say if they’ve changed their ways or still remain “Christians” having only a loose relationship with a church.

    I suppose the problem here could be the requirement to identify one’s religion in practically every form. People simply got used to wearing the label.

    Is it different elsewhere? I suspect in most countries people simply continue to label themselves with whatever religion their parents were and which they automatically followed when young, whether or not they continue to participate in regular activities.

    It is only those who actively think about religion and reject what they have been taught who take the trouble to relabel themselves as Free Thinkers or whatever.

    BTW I notice that there has been a resurgence of religious activity among Hindu and Buddhist university students. The Christians were active even in my time so I can’t tell if there has been any increase nowadays. I suppose this is a reaction to the intense Islamisation pressure they face everywhere else on campus.

  13. tzarina Says:

    Ignorants.

    Plus, now there is a Fitna version of the Bible, and the locals are lapping it up as a “revenge”.

    What a laugh.

    http://orangewaves.blogspot.com/2008/04/fitna-dutch-and-malaysian-hypocrites.html

  14. raj raman Says:

    To,
    Mr.Singam,
    Thanks for your comments,i like the way you put things in diferrent perpective of different religions.

    Very impresive with your comments without hurting others believed.May more people LIKE YOUR GOODSELF will be around.

    TO,
    Surind,
    I liked your posting very much.Thanks for sharing.
    RAJ RAMAN.

  15. Paul Warren Says:

    Su, who signed off as Michelle, suggests majority in NZ are Christians and that those without religion might be Asians!! Hmmm. Su, Well me too, my family is in NZ..I go there pretty often..and my kids and I do go to church too. Am afraid I can’t agree with you that the majority there are Christians. They are indifferent. Many even detest any suggestions of them being Christians..sure if you want to count on the basis of number of households who put up a Christmas Tree for Christmas and those who do Christmas shopping, maybe it might be close to 100%. And oh, some Mulsims there too put on their Christmas trees.

    As for Asians in NZ, I should say that some of the most vibrant churches are those that Asians attend. Especially the Korean churches.

  16. meagainsttheworld Says:

    Let me debunk the myths & romanticism of the West once and for all, and put the matter to rest:

    1. Majority of the Western population, except perhaps USA, do not go to church.
    2. The only times they do attend churches, if that, are for baby christenings (that’s where & how they were enlisted as Christians) & weddings. Christmas masses are only for the devotees. Christmas celebration is treated as a festival- just like Chinese New Year- when they can get drunk and be merry.
    3. They will profess to be a Christian if queried.
    4. They (some) will also defend Christianity intensely, though they haven’t the slightest idea what the religion is all about.
    5. Most do not possess any knowledge of the Bible, bar of course the oft-quoted verses (phrases)
    6. They do NOT go against Islam because they believe strongly in their own faith. They are against Islam because it is against their Western values and their pre-set/conceived notions (rigid values of right & wrong) of the world.
    7. Those that Malaysians meet may give the impression that they believe in the Christian values- far from it.
    8. Those that you see involved in church activities are devoted disciples or missionaries.

    Hope this clarifies the oft-misconception that Malaysians have about the Whites.

    The above clarification does not mean I am for or against the Whites or Christians. Just to let you all know that the schism between the West & Islam is not as simple as you all think- i.e. it’s never been Christianity vs Islam- it’s about their preconceived values/principles against Islam or the world at large. The holy crusade era has long been banished from their minds. So that can be set at rest. Live among them to discover what make them tick, just like I often say to them “Live among us to know what make us Asians tick” There, the world is more complicated than you all thought it would be. Isn’t it strange? That’s why there are constant wars between nations, tribes, races, classes, castes, groups…………………………..- it’s my belief against yours that causes the trouble & strife.


  17. [...] Holy smoke! They’re Godless in the West [image] By Helen Ang [...]

  18. Scott Thong Says:

    A similar lack of awareness led Edmund to comment: “I guess Helen Ang has never been to a bombed out abortion clinic and seen first hand what Christian fundamentalism can do.”

    Ms. Helen, would you like the facts of the oft-repeated but seldom accurately-reported matter?

    Before you click the following link, everybody make an educated guess how many abortionists have been murdered by those law-breaking, fanatically fundamentalist Christian fascists over the past four decades.

    Extremist Pro-Life Christian Fascists Have Killed Millions in the Name of Stopping Abortion! (Well, Maybe Not Quite That Many)

  19. Singam Says:

    Dear meagainsttheworld,

    You’re right, it’s never been Christianity versus Islam. Even at the time of the Crusades, it was about a people who, for whatever reason, called themselves Christian battling a people who believed they were Muslims.

    That enmity was never resolved and continued to simmer. Maybe the European people had forgotten but the (so-called) Muslims did not. This was why there was an uproar when Bush spoke of the crusade to liberate Iraq.

  20. barry Says:

    The general perception among the Moslems that the West is (automatically) Christian, and therefore ALL Christians (nevermind that many of these followers of the Christian faith are Asians) are against ALL Moslems doesn’t help us in Malaysia where the vast majority of the Malaysian Christians have no quarrel with the Malays/Moslems. Hence, it is not surprising that the Islam authorities treat the Christians here with much suspicion. Perhaps that is reason people like Lina Joy go through so much hassle just because she chose to believe in the teachings of the Bible, and that many Malays have to go underground just because their conscience is pricked due to their conviction about the Christian faith.

  21. Sheila Pakiam Says:

    Religion is a personal matter and is meant to help one live a better life based on ethical or spiritual values which are basically universal. Hence all argument and intellectual discussion on Fitnah, Khalwat and Tango etc. is simply a waste of precious time and a digression from pressing issues undertaken by the People’s Parliament and Haris. Please stop this nonsense and tell me instead what you have done Helen Ang for the Hindraf lawyers still under detention under pitiful conditions and denied rightful medical care.
    Haris the repeal of the ISA and the immediate release of the Hindraf lawyers should have been one of the top priorities after MARCH 8. More than a month has passed.
    You didn’t even mention the ISA in ‘You owe us big Pak Lah’ Neither did I see it reported at the Bar Council meeting with Pak Lah. How come? Its not like you. I recognise with gratitude the enormous effort and initiative of The People’s Declaration/People’s Voice and Bangsa Malaysia which was the rallying call for the Rakyat.
    Please give the Repeal of the ISA and the plight of the Hindraf lawyers and families also a seperate page of reporting on your website.
    Thank you
    sheila

  22. Helen Ang Says:

    Ms Sheila Pakiam,

    You have purposely singled me out for ‘digressing’ from a topic – Hindraf 5 – that you want publicised. Do you say I’ve not publicised the cause or the Indian lawyers? Have you read my writings before you published your comments above? If you haven’t, I’m listing a few, albeit not comprehensive, links for you.

    (1) MALAYSIAKINI

    My column, Nov 29, 2007:
    “I feel like I’ve just been slapped, kicked and punched. And I’m neither Indian nor Hindu. … When a community with its back to the wall takes to the street, I sympathise. I do not mock the melodramatic form of their lawsuit and petition. I understand that the massive turnout on Nov 25 was a cry of distress.”
    http://www.malaysiakini.com/columns/75440

    My column, Dec 20, 2007:
    “I learned of the developments [Hindraf ISA arrests] through SMS as I’ve been two weeks in a remote area of Terengganu … It was only yesterday morning and back in town that I read Aliran’s Dec 13 editorial, ‘Hindraf ISA arrests: BN govt has lost its moral authority’ which boldly and clear-sightedly laid forth the needful. … Over the last fortnight, MSM’s portrayal of Hindraf leaders and supporters has obviously sunk from sick to downright sinister.”
    http://www.malaysiakini.com/columns/76260

    My column, Dec 27, 2007:
    “This article is for R Vani, a Hindu … Let’s pray that our Muslim brothers and sisters will reject takfir (kafir-mengkafir) — the whispering campaign saying Anwar Ibrahim has turned Hindu because of his support for Hindraf …

    Let’s pray for the release of the Hindraf five and the 80-plus others unjustly detained under ISA, half of whom who are alleged to be Islamic militants. Ours is a government that locks up citizens without substantiating its charges. But on top of prayer, let’s protest. Listen and follow the voice of our heart. It’s our religious duty to dissent against this wrongdoing government
    http://www.malaysiakini.com/columns/76436

    (2) PEOPLE’S PARLIAMENT

    Nov 23, 2007
    “I was amidst a sea of Indians at that [Hindraf] meeting, held in a jam-packed town hall where the crowd spilled over. The meeting was conducted almost wholly in Tamil so I cannot report on the proceedings but the anger and anguish felt by the Indian community was palpable.

    “But if it is only Indians who feel the hurt, the corresponding indifference on the part of the large whole will widen the chasm between our communities. …

    “There is a gallows humour in the joke that if it’s a Malay problem, it’s a national problem. If it’s a Chinese problem, it’s a racial problem. If it’s an Indian problem, then there is no problem. Like all biting jokes, there must be some grain of truth in the observation for its bitter sting.

    “Oh how much we, the rest of us, have let our Hindu brothers and sisters down! Instead of waiting for Hindraf to reach out to us, perhaps we could do more to extend our hand to the Indians. Please, we must ‘do’ more.”
    http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/bangsa-malaysia-give-a-hand-to-our-indian-brothers-and-sisters/

    Jan 11, 2008
    “Through this single-minded effort over the last couple of weeks, the BN machinery prepared the ground for the use of the ISA by heaping all kinds of allegations against Hindraf.

    “Haris Ibrahim last month spoke at a DAP forum and forthrightly declared that the ISA was a bad law. He said the Hindraf Five are unjustly detained and challenged the government to charge them in court. … MSM demonising Hindraf was the straw that broke the camel’s back for us at the People’s Parliament (PP).

    “It was the demonisation of Hindraf that prompted me to write ‘Boycott the newspapers!’ under the aegis of PP and which appeared as my Malaysiakini column four days after the rally. The Hindraf rally was one day. The movement’s leaders are now in Kamunting. Life goes on. Post-Hindraf, we have to persist in the struggle against tyranny, a priority of which is to get Uthayakumar and friends out.
    http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/postmortem-on-hindraf-rally-2/

    (3) ALIRAN MEDIA MONITORS DIARY

    Feb 20, 2008
    “The public however has not forgotten that the Hindraf Five are still detained under the ISA. And yet, despite that tyrannical Sword of Damocles, which has been a longstanding deterrent to civic participation, the ‘small group of people’ still bravely assembled in the capital [for Hindraf’s Roses Day].

    “NST blathers on: ‘What they have done is to claim Hindus have been marginalised, accuse the government of ethnic cleansing, and beg for their five leaders to be released from detention under the Internal Security Act.’

    “If NST is more attuned to the pulse of the rakyat, it would know that civil society demands – no, not ‘begs’ – demands, that the Hindraf leaders be released. And for the ISA to be abolished.”
    http://www.aliran.com/elections/archives/2008_02_01_archives.html

    (4) BOYCOTT THE NEWSPAPERS! ONLINE PETITION

    “The newspapers claim police did not use force against Indians at Batu Caves on the eve of the Hindraf rally. Photographs show the Indians herded behind the temple gates, locked in, gassed to tears and doused with chemical-laced water.

    “When our authorities bully the most marginalized of communities, and newspapers blacken these victims of marginalization, then our country has reached a watershed. Civil society has no other choice but to be morally outraged …”

    I’ve also written in another post saying that “I took 3 days away from work to draft ‘Boycott the newspapers!’ which starts off the series, and into which I poured my heart and soul.”

    Ms Pakiam, why do you think I did that?

    March 9, 2008
    (at Bloghouse)
    My friends who were with me there that morning after will remember that the release of Hindraf 5 was uppermost in my mind upon the PR election ‘victory’.

    What do you know, Ms Pakiam, of my private discussions as to how people in my line of pro bono work can help publicise for their release?

    Ms Pakiam, you are not my friend so I can only say as Haris once did, “Those who know me, know me. Those who don’t, don’t”. However, if you personally have any programme on the cards to help the lawyers, please let this forum know and I’ll see what I can do to give you my support. Thank you.

  23. shar101 Says:

    Sheila Pakiam,

    Helen’s Aliran media link should read -

    http://www.aliran.com/elections/2008/02/nst-editorial-laced–with-pro.html

    and you might want to read up -

    http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/on-hindraf-looks-like-abdullah-sounds-like-kj

    We at TPP have created the awareness on Hindraf from before the event itself. Haris was trying to get the organisers to re-strategise on their rally because we KNEW it was a trap set up by the BN government to villify ‘illegal’ rallies in the eyes of the public, especially since Bersih, done two weeks earlier, was a resounding success.

    For now, perhaps, on the first sitting in parliament, one of the PR MPs can bring up this contentious issue in that august building.

    We will still do so despite the less than palatable manner in which you’ve couched your request. Help us to help you.

  24. shar101 Says:

    Sheila Pakiam,

    Please follow this link below which will show efforts by PR to petition for the release of Hindraf 5 -

    http://anilnetto.com/2008/04/19/5-state-govts-back-call-for-isa-detainees-release-guan-eng-tells-makkal-sakthi-crowd/

    It is my fervent hope LGE (or perhaps WAWI being the appointed PR leader) will bring up this matter in parliament at the earliest possible opportunity, not only for the Hindraf 5 but also for 70 others as well, including BSA Tahir who was connected with the affairs of Scomi.

    On matters of injustice, should we remain parochial, Sheila Pakiam?

  25. q Says:

    holy smoke = asap suci

  26. raj raman Says:

    haris,
    well you need to call miss sheila.
    u are most misunderstood by her and i was in the same boat before.

    miss sheila,
    haris hand and mouth tied.give him some breathing space.
    thanks.
    RAJ RAMAN;A SPADE IS A SPADE FOR ME.


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