By Helen Ang

______________________

Blogger Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib challenged Haris’ views on the schoolgirl white uniform in his blog Malaysia Waves. (See Comment #53 in People’s Parliament ‘Blouse’ post)

A day earlier, Rahman had blogged: ‘Is Malaysia Truly A Secular State?‘, asking “Is the DAP really sincere about upholding our constitution? Or DAP (and Karpal Singh) [sic] real interest is really to eradicate Malays and Islam from the face of the Malaysian earth?”

http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/05/is-malaysia-truly-secular-state_23.html

He continued: “After 50 years, Muslims around the world have realized that secularism have [sic] destroyed the Muslims and made Muslims go backwards.” And declared later in summation: “My personal belief is that the ideology of the Malaysian Constitution is Malay Supremacy and not Islam or secularism.”

He also posted on the Siti Fatimah apostasy case, carried in Tranungkite, a Dewan Pemuda PAS-administered media outlet which has a wide readership. http://www.tranungkite.net/v7/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9936

In it, Rahman took a shot at Haris and Malik Imtiaz because he believes their likes are “ideologues” who promote a “secular liberalism ideology”, and that the two lawyers disrespect the Syariah Courts.

In the Utusan Malaysia report on Siti Fatimah, the paper said, “Dalam tuntutannya juga, beliau menyatakan bahawa sepanjang memeluk agama Islam, dia masih lagi menyembah berhala Tok Pek Kong, berhala Kuang Tin Ne dan berhala Ti Kong (Dewa Langit) mengikut ajaran agama asalnya, Buddha dan memakan daging khinzir“.

To claim that praying to Tua Pek Kong (a historical person deified), Kuan Yin Ma (Goddess of Mercy) and Thni Kong (Celestial God) is following the teachings of Buddhism is incorrect, and reveals the ignorance of Siti Fatimah and the Malay reporter, and for their mangled spelling besides.

If anything, the description of Siti Fatimah’s religious practices are Taoist, whereas Buddhism is the teachings of the Buddha (like Christianity is the teachings of Christ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tua_Pek_Kong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Mercy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor

The condescending word ‘tolerance’ (read ‘understanding’) only goes in one direction in Malaysia. I know enough to be aware that Muslims in Malaysia are sunni, not shia, and the sanctioned Islamic teaching in our country is Sunnah Wal Jamaah.

But many Muslims are not aware that Taoism should be differentiated from Buddhism. Though to be fair, even some Penang Chinese themselves are confused, which only goes to show the lack of formal religious intruction for Chinese compared to for Malays. Whereas ancestor worship and Confucianism (quasi-religious thought) are separate and something else. There are Malaysian-Chinese who practice all of the above. That many Malays do not know this could be due to their being a protected species that the authorities evince must be insulated from exposure to any other religious system.

The narrow-mindedness inherent in Malaysian thinking is manifest in the second caveat Siti Fatimah eats pork, so this automatically disqualifies her as Muslim. Well, Islam also forbids stealing. Does looting from the national piggy bank preclude one from being Muslim too?

This insularity in thinking is not confined to Malays alone. What about the general presumption that Malaysians who do not profess any faith are of a low moral stature? You can bet there are monotheists or polytheists who will confidently pass judgment on an atheist, “You’re unprincipled because you do not pray.”

Shouldn’t these kinds of stereotypes and prejudices be debunked? No, I do not think Haris is at all wasting his time. In fact, on the contrary, I think we’ve spent woefully too little time on monitoring religious bigotry. So that it’s become all too easy for the Muslims to hurl slurs like ‘Islamophobe’ and ‘kafir’ as a catch-all retort to criticisms of them and their chauvinistic dogma.

But can you name me other prominent Malay or Muslim writers (besides Haris’ co-accused Imtiaz) who have challenged the blinkered dogmatism in our country? If not, then stop asking Haris to desist.

Anak Bangsa Malaysia is the seeking of space to accommodate our multifarious differences, and it is a People’s Parliament agenda. When one day it is your father’s remains that are bodysnatched by the LMNs (Little Mullah Napoleons) or your sister who is losing custody of her children to her Muslim convert husband, then your indifference would have come home to roost.

If Haris is willing to take up the cudgels on these issues, he has my support if not the naysayers’.

52 Responses to “Holy smoke! Islamophobes around and abound”

  1. matt Says:

    Don’t worry helen this imbecils have only one way of looking at the world, through blinkers.The larger malaysian public see thing’s in a different way
    thank’s to the last GE.

  2. ah-hem Says:

    My my my!!! Helen Ang seems to have made it her job to rush to Haris’ defence at any (real or her imagined) provocation. And Haris of course is gladly printing her many (some rather idiotic) views on his main page. Such a blissful symbiotic relationship. Truly made for each other. PUKE………..

  3. Paul Warren Says:

    On the matter of “tolerance”. I have previously written somewhere or other how much I hate when that word is applied on anyone other than when I have to tolerate the nonsensical arguments of absolute idiots just so the arguments don’t turn into fisticuffs. I have tried to explain how sometimes we tolerate the foul smelling of the cooking of one variety of salted fish that a neighbour cooks. Or how, we got to tolerate the loud music your neigbour plays which is noise to your ears.

    You tolerate something or other the is caused by someone else. In so doing you have made yourself superior and the other a lesser person than yourself. If others agree with you, they you have support and sympathy.

    Now, when it comes to believes and religion. If anyone was to say that they have to tolerate my religion, am I to assume that if my religion needs the tolerance of another, that that other might just be subscribing to a more superior kind of religion maybe?

    Really what I’d like is, if you are not of my religion, and you don’t know anything at all of my religion and really do not care to know even, just respect the fact that I might have a religion. I don’t expect respect for my religion, but respect me for my believes, rightfully or wrongfully. Respect me anyway even when I don’t profess a religion. That would be better. But please don’t ever say you tolerate my religion.

  4. Mr Smith Says:

    That guy is a religious bigot and should be shunned. He does not even deserve the dignity of a reply from Haris.
    I am one who believes that a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Taoist, an atheist, monotheist, polytheist and if I may add, a lesbian or gay all have a place in heaven as long as they live by their conscience and the Commandment of LOVE.
    Hypocrites, bigots, terrorists, and chauvinists do not know the meaning of selfless love. They only condemn others who don’t think like them.
    God is God of all mankind, not one particular group or religion.

  5. Shiok Guy Says:

    Well Written Helen!
    Nailed ON!

    We need to educate the young one, shield them from brain washing into religious fanatic.

    Those who already past their 30 and still think in the same line are hard to change! We have to save those under their care, make sure they are tolerance and become a kind hearted Malaysian. Not another racist or fanatic in the making.

    We need to start them while they are young, we need to overhaul or education system.. we need to do more

    http://shiokguy.blogspot.com/2008/05/local-vs-foreign-graduate.html

    Shiok Guy
    http://shiokguy.blogspot.com/

  6. Surind Says:

    “Protected Species”… hahaha :)

  7. su Says:

    I think the thing about religion in Malaysia is that it has been branded with the word “sensitive issue” all over it that nobody actually knows much about other religions than the one they are born into. Religion has been “too sensitive” to touch on, we are not allowed to “question” religion, Islam in particular. And this has ended up with a major portion of Malaysians being happily ignorant of what Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism is. And exactly in what context does religion have in the Constitution?

    So many people have claimed that Malay rights and Islamic rights are protected by the Constitution. But hey, have these people really read the Constitution? If they have, they must have noticed that wherever it states that the “Malays and natives of Sabah and Sarawak” have special positions, it also states under the same article that the rights of other races are to be protected. Where it says that Islam is the official religion of Malaysia, it also says in the same sentence that the people are free to practice other religions in peace and harmony.

    I have to thank you good people of the People’s Parliament for putting forward this discussion about religion in Malaysia. It has been labelled “sensitive” for too long. Most non-Muslims do not “have a fear of Islam”, as the term “Islamophobe” would suggest. We just do not want rules, Islamic or not, to be imposed upon us.


  8. Dear Helen,spot on.Every word rings true,especially when pointing out the differences between Buddhism and Taoism.I think other religions like Christianity,Hinduism and Sikhism were just as misunderstood by the Muslims.Maybe they are not allowed to learn other people’faith or they are simply not interested to learn.This was make worst when only Islam is allowed to be taught in schools and made compulsory in higher education institutions.Other religions did not get this exposure.Maybe in these education officers’s minds,other religions did not exist! Non muslim students were deprieved of the chance to learn their own religions at school.Instead,they were all shoved into the Moral classes.Is this policy fair to us the cafe lattes? The same scenario is repeated in the TV channels.Only Islam gets prominent exposure while others did not get to see the light of day.I think by sweeping other religions under the carpet or simply brushing them aside,the tension we all see today in this country will get deeper and beyond repair.As the saying goes’it takes two to tango’,unless the Muslims themselves open their hearts and minds to learn,accept and respect others,the road to reconcialation is very long and rocky indeed.I hope and pray such a day will come our way.Lest I will be accused of demeaning Islam or demanding more rights(as Old Che Det says),let’s make it clear that I am speaking from my heart without any malice intended.Yes,we have the freedom to practise our religions but we did not have the respect and understanding that comes with it.


  9. Hi Brother Haris,can you please explain to me why Muslims uses the thumb to point,and not the index finger?Lately,I notices that even many cafe(kafir)lattes also follows the same way.As far as I can remember we were taught by our teachers way back then that thumbs means good as in’thumbs up’, and index finger means pointing.Please enlighten me on this when you can find the time,okay?Just wondering because this is also happening in school textbooks.Thanks in advance.

    a concerned voter,

    I’m a bit blur on this as well.

    Anyone care to explain?

  10. Why Cares Says:

    I thanks Harris Ibrahim for his many wise expositions.

    I also appreciate Helen Ang many write-ups to enlighten.

    Syabas to both .

  11. Farida Says:

    Dear Ah-hem,
    I came across your comment (reproduced below)in the midst of digesting and dissecting the views of others on the issue raised by this post.

    ” ah-hem Says:
    May 31, 2008 at 3:57 pm

    My my my!!! Helen Ang seems to have made it her job to rush to Haris’ defence at any (real or her imagined) provocation. And Haris of course is gladly printing her many (some rather idiotic) views on his main page. Such a blissful symbiotic relationship. Truly made for each other. PUKE………..”

    Ah-hem, it’s a pity you did not deal with the given topic but chose instead to try to sully innocent professional team work by imputing something unworthy of that relationship. In doing so, you have only revealed to us, the readers, the kind of person you are – an imbecile.

    Sad to say, ah-hem, you clearly take great pleasure in character assassination and planting vile thoughts in the minds of others. Much like Iago, I would say.

    If you had taken the trouble to follow the many threads on this site, you would have known that many of us write in support of Haris and Helen and others when we agree with what they say. And if our stands are similar, is it wrong to voice that out?

    As Anak Bangsa Malaysia, we share the same core values of justice, fairplay, integrity, etc. and yes,we will not hesitate to defend Haris, Helen and whoever else among us that people like you choose to malign.

    Ah-hem, if you think that only males should stand up for Haris and there is something odd if a female supports his stand frequently, you’re definitely the Neanderthal I think you are.

    Obviously, you have nothing to say and to contribute, so please, take your malice and your vile imaginations elsewhere. In the end, this kind of foul thinking only betrays your lack of education and the darkness of your mind.

    Haris, I disagree with you! Is there any need in running comments by imbeciles like ah-hem?

  12. anna brella Says:

    …er….protected species?…..surely not Haris?….how strange I have not come across this pertinent snippet on CITES….hmm, perhaps I have been a bit of a dodo on potential endangered species…?

    “Imagine-Power To The People” John Lennon.

  13. raj raman 666 Says:

    hi,helen

    just came to get some publicity and ask how are u.?

    Now i am attacking haris on off shoot ( i just blogs and under moderation.( this one can cause me trouble if someone take it very offensive).

    goodnight and have a good weekend.
    rajraman666.need my 4hrs sleep,2moro will know whether i past lie detector of haris.

  14. KK Lim Says:

    Know what ? We should put all these religious bigots in Sichuan, China and let them live in the conditions after a 7.8 Ritcher, half buried in rubbles and waiting to be rescued. But before being rescued, ask them first whether it matters to them if their rescuers were secularists, atheist, muslims, buddhists, taoists, christians or communists or they prefer to wait for someone of his same religion ?

    Blogger Abdul Rahman Talib, for all your travelling, why don’t u visit Sichuan now and tell us your experience after this ?

  15. peisheah Says:

    All these arguments about religion are what make me a so-called atheist. Can I even profess to be an agnostic?

  16. alan Says:

    Dear Haris,

    It is nice to have a Muslim to engaged another Muslim ( you and Mahaguru58) on the subject of religion especially Islam, as i don’t know much about Islam. In fact i don’t know much about religion. I do want to know and understand more about Islam and other religions and the reasons…

    I really can’t say my parents were Buddhist but because i guess we are Malaysian Chinese, we assumed we are, as my parents and my NRIC stated Buddhism as our religion. As a school boy i dare not objected but as i became an adult(old enough la) i objected! This was when my late father told me i am free to choose my own religion. Of coz i am thrilled!

    But this is the problem, during my school days, students of different religions start calling each other names. Teachers were of no help too. You may ask me why i did not take the initiative to seek guidance to ‘find’ a religion or faith of my choice? Let me tell you it is not easy, as i find most religion people/believers have their own personal propaganda or maybe i have yet to find ’someone’ who can show me ‘The Way’.

    I found that talking/discussions about religion is so sensitive in this country that even my best friends of all religions get uncomfortable with me when i ask a lot of questions. Yes, i do ‘dispute’ them but that is the reason for me to understand a religion better before i can have faith in a religion of my choice!

    Yes, i am religions-phobe. I ask myself why and please tell me why not! As i see and hear people running chinese temples cheats their believers, bodysnatched by Little Mullah Nepoleans and when i got into some personal problems, my Christian friends offer to help (counselling) but i must be a Christian first before their pastors can ‘help’ me!!!

    I don’t wish to retorting to name-calling but with people like Mahaguru58 is simply not helpful to me to understand Islam better when he ‘joked’ with a ‘friend’ suggesting about people should tattoo on their chest or forehead that their are Kaffir if non-muslims fearful of having their bodies snatch, in his comments to sean-the-man blogspot.com

    Therefore, i am looking forward to your engagement with Mahaguru58 with an open mind with the hope of understanding Islam better.I hope i can still write to you for clarification even after your cyberspace discussion with him.

    Thanks & God Bless

  17. Sharing Says:

    Angles of View
    ===============
    If Religion are about GOD, I believe Buddhism, Taoism and Confucius can be excluded as all are more to start from Philosophy of how to live harmony among all substances in Nature – the Heaven, the Earth and the People than any particular God. Those being worshiped are Buddha who had gone through a lot of hard work and performance in different aspects of life. They are human to start off!

    They are to start off from their heart and soul with deviations on the way of doing so with different level of emphasis of oneself or family or society and to be more sympathies (emotional) or more rational. Practices can be of many many forms, or no fixed form, only if the target of harmony or kindness to others to be reached.

    The preaching of these “religion” or philosophy are to increase the wisdom of People how to Think to inspire them to reach harmony basing on their ability and circumstances.They could be religious if anyone wants to follow any of their many ways to perform. Or, Philosophy to realize a much bigger and better or more favorable way!

    The Chinese Buddhism had been modified so much by the Chinese culture, that they are more closer to Confucius and Tao than the original Indian Buddhism which arrived China after the existence of Confucius and Tao. They believe the Universe has it own rules and regulations and must be balance. Therefore, one must behave to keep things in harmony. Not to be by Order of God to behave but by self-discipline on the faith of life!

    Guilty or Not, not by the Court or God but the heart-the spirit!

  18. IslamCalling Says:

    Alan if you want to know more about islam
    Check out this link http://www.islamcalling.com

    IslamCalling
    come find the truth

  19. svsingam Says:

    Alan,

    While the engagement between Haris and the mahaguru (great teacher) will surely bring out some very interesting contrasts between a closed and an open approach towards religion, I don’t expect that the opportunity will arise for them to explore all the questions that may be on your mind.

    Haris has another blog, The Qur’anic which explores Islam that is Qur’an based. I have not come across any website that explore other religions in a similar manner. But I shall be pleased to engage you in private discussion about religion in general.

    I can understand your skepticism but I also sense that you are open to discovery. I can assure you, the path will be interesting.

  20. Bunda Says:

    We Malaysians have the wrong idea about “tolerance”. It is the wrong mindset when it comes to the beliefs and practices of “others”.

    We should all strive for UNDERSTANDING and ACCEPTANCE. The word “tolerance” implies that I find your creed and religion repugnant at worst, or at the very least beneath me at best.

    “Tolerance” implies “unacceptable”. When something is unacceptable, then enlightenment and peace will not be forthcoming. And, physical conflict is inevitable since there is already psychological conflict.

  21. team bsg Says:

    an excellent critique and perfectly logical response to some who are decidedly evil and hiding behind religion.

    But then again, this is nothing new. Historically for thousands of years this kind of dreadful scenarios have been played out until today !

  22. Birdman Says:

    In Malaysian,Religion is fervently exploited by UMNO, take religion away from the mainstream, Malaysian should see less conflict and peace for eternity. What said you Haris ?

    Birdman,

    Setuju


  23. To know is to love
    So ask, seek and knock
    On the door of any religion that’s not blocked
    So that you may eventually find your religious dove

    (C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 010608
    http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
    Sun. 1st June 2008.

  24. scout Says:

    Helen, I enjoyed your article/post.

    I agree. A lot of people here (Chinese or otherwise) don’t understand that Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism are three different philosophies. Yes, I call them philosophies because Taoism and Confucianism are not religion and one could argue that some varieties of Buddhism are not religion too.

    I won’t go into the historical details behind each of them, but I just want to point out that just because some people claim that they are from a certain religion doesn’t mean that they truly understand their own religion or know how their religion came to be and how it has evolved.

  25. Exchanger Says:

    Buddhism and Taoism are difficult to distinguish because Buddhism was very easily integrated into the teachings of Taoism, and certainly explained a lot of what Taoists believed.

    For example, Buddha said that there were people who could have become Buddha, but did not, and thus become gods and goddesses instead. The goddess of mercy is one such individual. The Jade emperor, and other celestial bodies of Taoism are simply divine people who have made some progress in becoming Buddha, but chose to make themselves comfortable in heaven.

    Buddha preached to not just humans, but beings from different existences, and the Taoist deities can be considered as among them.

    Buddhism in its pure form is ‘find out for yourself what the truth of the universe is’

    The other form, was established after he gained male and female followers, and gave them rules on becoming nuns and monks, as well as common precepts for laypeople not interested in becoming a Buddha.

    Buddhism evolved to its current most popular form to better suit humans, and the ‘human desire for divine beings’ which is perfectly fine, because the Buddha himself talked about divine beings, and worshipping them is an alright practice, though not wholly encouraged.

    As for vegetarianism, Buddha himself wasn’t a strict vegetarian. He ate anything other people could spare to give him, and never placed restrictions on what they could or could not serve him, and limited meals (i think two) a day. Food was strictly for maintaining the body.

    I hope this clears up things a bit for everyone :)

    Sources – not really, its my own storage of knowledge from Buddhist classes and bits of research, and scripture readings.

  26. Meng Says:

    It works both ways. I am a buddhist, I eat pork and I am not a muslim and praying to Allah is wrong for me.

    When I see a schoolgirl in her present uniform I do not get exited as compared to ppl like Abdul Rahman gets excited ..sexcited.

    The problem is the man himself Thats counts whether he has sufficient morality in him to withstand the exposing look of a women.

    Poor women always get the blame when one is very Low in Rohania.

    Meng,

    Just curious. Why would it be wrong for you to pray to Allah?

  27. Gary Anniyann Says:

    All these arguments about religion is a waste of time. Why we are born? Why we laugh, cry, suffer, enjoy and then die? Become rich or poor? What happens after death? Friends, we don’t know. It is all speculation and fantasy reduced to writing in the form of “Sacred Books” The unknown fascinates the human race. Like the UFO, cerita Pontianak etc. Back in primary school, I use to joke…..

    Question:Who created human beings?

    Answer: GOD

    Question: Who created GOD?

    Answer: Human Beings.

    Brother and Sisters instead of wasting time arguing about ‘RELIGION” and fighting to say whose GOD is GOD, please support HARRIS, IMTIAZ and the like in their cause and fight for the betterment of our lives.

  28. Helen Ang Says:

    An individual like ‘ah-hem’ on May 31, 3:57pm is not worth my time replying.

    However, for other PP readers, do note that on May 24 (9.25pm), I did try engaging Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib (he’s Comment #53 earlier the same day, I’m #54). http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/05/22/take-that-blouse-off-its-making-me-hot/#comments

    It would appear that Rahman took his shot at Haris, and did not bother to follow up here after that – I would read him as a hit-and-run commentator, much like ‘ah-hem’ I suspect.

    And Farida, don’t worry. I have no issue with Haris printing ah-hem’s comment. Let him (or her) have his say. My Malaysiakini writings on these same issues (independent of Haris) the past years are on record and can speak for me.

  29. A true Malaysian Says:

    alan,

    I agreed with what you commented. To me, ’self-realisation’ is important for one to have faith in a religion or belief. Even Buddha founded Buddhism through self-realisation. I list below what Buddha told his disciples :-

    “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

    So, the best thing to do is to keep our minds open. There is nothing in this world is absolute right or wrong. What written in the Holy Koran or Bible, may be true, but are still subject to interpretation.

  30. Facial Says:

    Hi Abdul, what for asking for challenge on school girl white uniform,you just have to on TV 1,2 & 3, and see how these people dressed and made up.

  31. Revert Says:

    Salam,
    Please disregard the emoticon inserted accidentally. no malice intended. My sincere and humble apologies.

    And to you Harris, may Allah SWT be your guide always.
    Wassalam

  32. LJ Says:

    What’s his name said: “My personal belief is that the ideology of the Malaysian Constitution is Malay Supremacy and not Islam or secularism.”

    Actually there is a kernel of truth in this, not “Malay Supremacy” as he understands it, but Malays & the natives of Sabah & Sarawak in respect of extra “protection” afforded to them because of their “special position”. There is, of course, no such as “special rights” or “special privileges” of Malays in the Constitution – as anyone who has read the Constitution knows – but that for a while (after Merdeka in 1957) Malays et al should be protected as children ought to be, until they reach adulthood. If I were Malay I would be insulted by this, but alas I am not Malay.

    However, I suspect that many well-educated, well-read, well-travelled and accomplished Malays (like, say, Tun Hanif Omar), increasingly feel insulted by the apparently never-ending gravy train that is the NEP, which suggests that the Malays will forever be children in need of continuous protection or if they have attained legal age, they are somehow permanently disabled or handicapped as are the blind, lame, deaf , dumb or the mentally challenged!

    The kernel of truth I speak of is that Islam has been hijacked by Malay fascists and used as the cover for a Malay supremacist agenda (which is as diabolical and dangerous as the White Supremacists agenda in the US). This they have done because it becomes very difficult to criticise Islam and any reasonable criticism of it would be taken as an attack on Islam and, ergo, Islamophobic.

    Under this cover UMNO, post-1969, has perpetrated enormous injustices, effectively gagging all reasonable protests. Only now Malay Muslims themselves can see how their religion has been used to perpetrate gross injustices and dragged through the mud as an unjust, fascist and racist religion (when nothing can be further from the truth) that good Muslims have stood up to UMNO and its ilk.

    On the question of the secular nature of the Constitution, the answer is not to rub the noses of Muslims by declaring that the Constitution is secular, suffice it to say – as indeed Pak Lah himself once said – that the Constitution is neither Islamic (because the supreme law is the Constitution itself and not the Syariah or whatever) nor secular (if for no reason other than the fact that the Constitution has so much to say about Islam & Islamic laws). What that message signals is the truth that the Constitution is not Islamic.

    LJ

  33. Oneman Says:

    Hi Haris. M just thinking aloud. Your headline doesn’t quite convey what is being written, I think. The word Islamophobe means someone who is phobic about Islam. Ms Ang’s article is not about attacking the ppl who are phobic about Islam. Do u mean to say something like Holy smoke! Rabid Islamists or Islam zealots around and abound! ?

    To the reader who asked about pointing with the thumb. This is done in very polite circles. The Malay considers it rude to point (with the index finger). Hence the thumb. If, as the reader says, he is noticing this gesture a lot more, well I am delighted. Malaysians, especially Malay youth, are forgetting their adab. And, oh, that gesture has nothing to do with Islam, It’s just a cultured Malay thing.

  34. alan Says:

    First of all I would like to thank Haris for posting my comments and thoughts here.

    Islam Calling – Thanks, i have bookmarked the link.

    svsingam – Thanks to you too. I have bookmarked this Haris’s The Qur’anic blog and i will post questions there as i read the posting there.

    I find these links useful as it is English.

    A true Malaysian – Thanks alot for your input. This is exactly in my mind now.I belief in God but my faith is lacking. But i will keep an open mind. Thanks again.

    It is great to know in cyberspace i can be honest and brave enough to speak my mind without getting hard-looks from people!

    Yes, there is no right or wrong. I was told Buddhism is not a religion but ‘The Way of Life’ teaching by Buddha.

  35. Meng Says:

    Meng,

    Just curious. Why would it be wrong for you to pray to Allah?

    Haris, I do not believe in God, Allah or a creator and I am happy with that.

    More ppl have been killed in the name of God and Allah.

  36. Meng Says:

    Quote “A woman of the world is anxious to exhibit her form and shape, whether walking, standing, sitting, or sleeping. Even when represented as a picture, she desires to captivate with the charms of her beauty, and thus to rob men of their steadfast heart. How then ought ye to guard yourselves? By regarding her tears and her smiles as enemies, her stooping form, her hanging arms, and her disentangled hair as toils designed to entrap man’s heart. Therefore, I say, restrain the heart, give it no unbridled license.” unquote..Buddha the Gospel


  37. [...] about the cultural stereotype, but whose God is better. An argument that has no ending, only a pathological misunderstanding, hatred and perhaps more than a fair share of broken hearts in [...]

  38. Sharing Says:

    Religion & Philosophy
    =====================
    Religion would mean to follow what the religion said, the Right and Wrong are usually there with some absoluteness.
    Philosophy is to realize what someone had said and to realize how it can be related to life. Right or Wrong are opened to be verified and explored.

    As mentioned, the Chinese Buddhism had taken much from the Chinese culture, noticeably Tao, which said a lot on relativities or comparison. When “no right or wrong” is mentioned, it is referring to the absoluteness and to remind possibility of differences when the angle of view or conditions are different. Therefore, right or wrong is there when conditions are specified.

    Taoism is a religion when people are just to follow what certain people do and claimed to be a Taoist. This is more for those worshiping Divines.
    For philosophy Tao, one should be looking at the saying of Lao Zhi in his Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing) which talks a lot of relativities and the behavior of oneself in the society and the relationship of People to the Universe. They are quite entirely different from the Taoism of those worshiping Divines.

    Question of Right or Wrong depending on the stage of “wisdom” of people. It should be emphasized when people have certain understanding and ready to explore. This should not be emphasized when people are only at the stage of learning and not yet with some understanding to explore!

    When people practicing Buddhism or Tao, they have to consider if to take it more as a religion or philosophy? Or, to verify it as Philosophy and then a Religion? Provided if that Religion including a preaching of how to think with different points of view or conditions!

    When people are talking absolute on what was written, it is a religion more than a philosophy.


  39. Meng,on June 2,2008 at 9.19pm says’more people have been killed in the name of God and Allah’.Yes,I agreed with you,Meng.If we refer to history books,we will get to learn about religious wars such as the Crusades fought between Muslims and Christians around the 11th century until 13th century in Jerusalem,the wars between the Protestants and Roman Catholics in 16th century France and of course the present conflicts in Northern Ireland.

  40. Ahmad Navi Abdullah Says:

    Two points I wish to make.
    Many Malaysians assume that all chinese are buddhist. I have seen it happen from school days to now. Chinese are off all religions; Toist, Buddhist, Christians, Muslims and others.
    From what I understand, the jews belive in the old testament- from Adam and Eve to Nabi Musa(Moses. They do not recognize Nabi Isa(Jesus); the christians believe in the old testament and the teachings of Nabi Isa (Jesus). They also believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The Muslims believe in the old testament, the teachings of Nabi Isa and more so the teachings of Nabi Mohamed, the Quran. They do not belive that Nabi Isa is the Son of God. But they all recognize the one God that they all came from; yet so much enemity, so much hatred.
    I have read all the books, the Old Testaments, the Bible and the translation of the Koran. As any layman, my knowledge is only skin deep and I won’t quote from any of the scriptures.
    As a human being, doing the right thing, being merciful and kind, being just and fair and treating all humans as one seems to be the decent thing to do; not hurting others and being cruel to fellow humans, whatsoever the religion they profess.
    The understanding shown by the contributors to this column leaves us just as confused as before.


  41. Dear Helen,

    It’s clear that you’re uncomfortable when the dogmas of the Western Secularism are now being questioned.

    So, you start hitting out at those in support of Islam. And u brand Islam as dogma.

    In short the liberal West is not short of dogmas themselves. I.e. practice of free sex, abortion (infanticide), feminisim, homosexuality.

    Pretty much all of what is being practiced and believed in the West right now are nothing but dogmas.

    But Helen, being a bigot herself, only see one type of dogma without seeing the other.

    It’s tyical liberal attitude. Helen is a typical liberal nutcase. Everybody else is wrong, right Helen.

    The good news is I will keep on exposing the dogmas of the West in my blog.


  42. Helen Ang seems to have a contempt against Mullahs.

    Hmmmm, Mullah vs Liberal Ideolouges.

    Lets see, Alfred C Kinsey’s idea led to the sexual revolution. REsult ==> destruction of the family institution, rise in homosexuality, rise in rates of adultery and fornication, rise in teenage pregnancy, STD’s, AIDS etc.

    Mullah ==> Prohibits free sex and keep sex within the marriage circle. RESULT: nonw of the result that comes from Kinsey’s idea.

    So, Mullah’s policy doesn’t result in the govt having to spent billions in a year to solve problems of the soceity.

    The Dogma is in Helen’s head and no where else.


  43. Mr Smith Says:
    May 31, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    That guy is a religious bigot and should be shunned. He does not even deserve the dignity of a reply from Haris.
    I am one who believes that a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Taoist, an atheist, monotheist, polytheist and if I may add, a lesbian or gay all have a place in heaven as long as they live by their conscience and the Commandment of LOVE.

    MY REPLY: And Mr Smith, have u actually been to heaven? DId u see your policy actually being practiced in heaven?

    You liberals are always imagining things. You’re filled with imagination, mr smith.

  44. scout Says:

    Abdul Rahman says:
    “In short the liberal West is not short of dogmas themselves. I.e. practice of free sex, abortion (infanticide), feminisim, homosexuality.”

    Huh? How do you lump everything under the sun and label them as dogmas? “Dogma” is described as a doctrine (usually a religion) or a belief or an established opinion.

    For sure, free sex, abortion and homosexuality are still being argued in the “West” (I am assuming you are referring to the US mainly or/and Europe). So they are not “dogmas” because there a proponents of abortion, and same sex marriage just as there are people who oppose those issues. I don’t see a major consensus on those issues there.

    And the fact that you group “feminism” together with the other practice you deem immoral shows that you are a misogynist.

    My one pet peeve is also how a lot of people here (and I blame it on our education system) like to label West =bad without really knowing which countries they are referring to. I can tell you they don’t all share the same culture there you know.

    And in a later comment:
    “Lets see, Alfred C Kinsey’s idea led to the sexual revolution. REsult ==> destruction of the family institution, rise in homosexuality, rise in rates of adultery and fornication, rise in teenage pregnancy, STD’s, AIDS etc.

    Mullah ==> Prohibits free sex and keep sex within the marriage circle. RESULT: nonw of the result that comes from Kinsey’s idea.

    So, Mullah’s policy doesn’t result in the govt having to spent billions in a year to solve problems of the soceity.”

    Though I might not fully agree with Kinsey’s findings and his research methods, how can you attribute all those things to Kinsey?
    And how do you know for sure that the Mullahs have been successful in controlling all that?
    Do you have any substantial data to prove that?
    If not, it’s called false reasoning and generalization.

    Or maybe it was pure sarcasm? If so, sorry.

    And in reply to Mr. Smith:
    “And Mr Smith, have u actually been to heaven? DId u see your policy actually being practiced in heaven?

    You liberals are always imagining things. You’re filled with imagination, mr smith.”

    I bet you haven’t been to heaven yourself too Mr. Abdul. So, what’s your point?

  45. George Says:

    To Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib,

    If u dare to question whether Mr.Smith had been to Heaven, let me ask u back:

    1) Had u been there “Heaven” at the first place? Or just your imaginative “Heaven” ought to be.
    2) Heaven and Hell which descibed by many religions are not same, so which Heaven u referring to?
    3) If u comments all are liberals, that who are u indeed?
    4) What kind of policy u talk about??? NEP in Heaven? or “Ketuanan Melayu”???

    You have put yourself in doubt in this blog here and insult to other religion believers…shame on u!

  46. Meng Says:

    It is interesting to read about the muslim heaven.
    According to this site:

    http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/heaven.html

    You have dark eyed houris/ beautiful virgin for sex, young boys to serve you, with the purest of wines to drink.

    But what foxed me is this that Jesus will judge the muslim on the day of judgement.:

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 658:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah’s Apostle said “How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7)

  47. alhadee Says:

    Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib AKA cabearth,

    ‘…It’s clear that you’re uncomfortable when the dogmas of the Western Secularism are now being questioned….’

    Good attempt at establishing ‘Muslims vs Liberal west’ camps.

    Not good enough for me.

    scout is right. You should not round up all secular minded people in one group.

    Christians, in general, do shun free sex. And so does many religions in the world including Islam.

    As a Muslims, I would not certainly encourage anybody, Muslims or non Muslims to practice free sex.

    The question is now is whether this opinion of mine should be enforced upon.

    Let’s take Malaysia for example.

    You said;

    ‘.. keep sex within the marriage circle.’

    More people are getting married. But what do we have at the moment? Divorce cases rise high. And as usual, the children became the victims.

    Admittedly, we have high divorce cases in the West too. But one thing we could appreciate of the west is that there is always room to discuss the cause and plenty of opportunities to find ways to overcome this problem.

    It is very unlike Malaysia. Solve sexual lust = get married. When marriage gone sours due to less sex fuel, solution is women must be obedient and man can take up more wives.

    And all that in the name of Islam.

    The opinion that; solve sexual urges = get married as propose by many religions might sound nice but it does not solve anything much in the long run. We have to accept that life in this century differs so much compare to 1500 years ago.

    Would I recommend marriage as the way out for sexual lust? No. You marry someone whom you think you can still love and live with when your skins are wrinkle, your teeth long gone, your hearing impaired and many other things you cannot do when you are young (that is including sex).

    When the solution of sexual lust is equal to getting married, what will happen is this; when the wife is getting old and less attractive, Muslim men will go hunting for younger wife, citing the Prophet as their defense in doing so.

    So we have broken families. Children without adequate attention of fathers and etc. I met one, which I hope does not apostate yet, whose father practice polygamy citing Prophet as his reason, and who lost trust in religion because of that.

    My conclusion is this, Muslims, Christians and every self-professed religious people have the right to go out and campaign for sex within wedlock. It might be a good idea to certain stage. BUT let me make myself clear; it never should be enforced upon anyone. Let every man/woman decides what it is best for them.

    I found a good link.

    http://xrdarabia.org/2007/09/07/divorce-rate-soars-in-western-saudi-arabia/

    Crossroads Arabia : Divorce Rate Soars in Western Saudi Arabia

    Conclusion; life in the desert today is not equal like life in the desert thousand years ago. What more to say in many other parts of the world.

  48. Meng Says:

    alhadee well said.

    “Would I recommend marriage as the way out for sexual lust? No. You marry someone whom you think you can still love and live with when your skins are wrinkle, your teeth long gone, your hearing impaired and many other things you cannot do when you are young (that is including sex)”

    This is the most beautiful input and well said. This is what Malaysian should be.

    Alhadee you have my respect.

  49. raj raman 666 Says:

    HI,helen.

    Holy smoke everywhere,

    Why did “BUDDHA have a serene smile”-and i dont smile.
    Then the holy smoke of religion will vanish in thin air if anyone can understand the great BUDDHA smile.

    (actually this question posted by your friend to me or some u know)

    rajraman666.the demon999 in everyone life.

  50. Helen Ang Says:

    Raj Raman on June 5 at 9:58 pm,

    If you don’t smile, you’re not the only one. M’sians not smiling b’cos petrol hike & the prices of everything else have just gone up & up over the last year.

    Below is an interesting letter on how Petronas is spending its money,
    http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/84076

    The reason I’m recommending the link above is b’cos opinions like Proarte’s (the writer cited) is not heard in the mainstream.

    Like we all know, MSM is simply controlled by vested interests, no ifs & buts, and its adjunct organisations are beholden to their sponsors.

  51. raj raman 666 Says:

    HI,
    Helen.
    I did get your attention.

    Yep,i knows what the cronies doing without reading.just pass throu because its looks like i am famous brand name RAJRAMAN .

    Conffesion to make.
    Sharing- i do have classic car a guzzler,every 4 years i changed my businness car 2.500cc and my wife is a taxi driver using 2300cc to send and pick up my daughter.(but still sleep 4 hrs,the price i paid for hard work and still work hard without playing hard)

    HElEN> you are such a wonderfull lady,championing everyone,so its worth not to comment ahem hem.Its my pleasure to communicate with u.

    Rajraman.NO MORE SMILE AND A BIT TOUGH TIME .job are scarce and soon lowly paid or jobless.

  52. raj raman 666 Says:

    Helen,

    Nothing new about petronas and BN.
    Its well documented proof even by taxi driver. (NGV monopolised)

    The recomended reading i read b4 and also by donplaypunks.As i said b4 i read 2day and i 4get 2moro.I had to keep my mind occupy by reading until my valium take over.

    Something interesting brewing in between.I wish one of client can talk to to u but he just an expartriate in finance and love Malaysia.(The top world ranking)Its heaven for him and family.

    But in between he said MALAYSIA HAVE EVERYTHING EXCEPT BRAIN.

    I wish u can talk to him to get more information about our heaven but hell country but unfunately he not interested to talk his point and i had to keep in my brain without spilling out.

    One thing he mention why BARACK OBAMA can break the racial barrier and managed to represent DEMOCRATS.

    BARRACK OBAMA CAN BREAK AWAY FROM JEWS FINACIAL SUPPORT IN AMERICAN POLITICS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE LIKE YOU,HARIS AND OTHER BLOGGERS EXIST IN AMERICA.

    the people/citizen now can finance straight a candidate they choose by online donation.(unfutunately i only knows how to use my hotmail,my gmail post atom always said i am not raj raman)

    So carry on without fear or favor.Its someone like u,haris and anilnetto will open our mind/or malaysian mind.Then we can decide who will be the choosen one to represent us.

    rajraman666.still dreaming to be malaysian putra in my dreams.(another dream of mine,HAVE A GOOD SLEEP)

    HELEN-FIND OUT WHY “BUDDHA HAVE A SERENE SMILE” than all the holy smoke will dissapear.and raj raman dont smile because not enough sleep expecially very moody in the morning and late afternoon.(IN BETWEEN I AM ANGEL BEFORE BECOME THE DEMON999.)and his advise to me not to bloggs because its makes my brain more hyper.( i had to think hard about his advise but meanwhile let me be hyper)


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