In January, 2002, following upon Dr M’s ’929 Declaration’ that Malaysia is an Islamic state, the St Francis Xavier church in PJ hosted an ‘Is Malaysia an Islamic state?’ forum.
If I recall correctly, representing the government view was a speaker from IKIM whose name I cannot recall. YB Lim Kit Siang spoke, as did YB Dr Hassan Ali from PAS.
One word each for the IKIM speaker and YB Dr Hassan Ali, and two for YB Lim, would succintly describe their respective views on the question whether Malaysia was an Islamic state.
IKIM speaker : Yes
YB Dr Hassan : No
YB Lim : Mana boleh
During the Q&A session, I asked YB Dr Hassan whether, if PAS ever came to power and ruled the country, and given that Islam does not countenance race discrimination, would PAS move to dismantle the bumi/non-bumi distinction in the country and to amend the constitution to remove the ‘special position’ of the Malays.
Like a true politician, he answered without quite answering my questions.
However, the audience were not having it and, one by one, many more rose to press for a more definitive answer.
Finding himself cornered, YB Dr Hassan finally and rather sheepishly, and albeit in a rather round-about fashion, answered those questions in the negative.
This man, now the chair of the Islamic Affairs committee of the Pakatan Rakyat state government, has recently announced that Islam Hadhari is banned “di Selangor ini kerana Islam yang kita amalkan dulu dan hari ini tidak berubah dan sudah cukup. Oleh yang demikian, kita mahu sandarkan ajaran Islam sebenar untuk memerintah Selangor ini dan bukannya Islam Hadhari”.
You can get the rest of this from a Malaysiakini report.
YB Dr Hassan says that “Islam yang kita amalkan dulu dan hari ini tidak berubah dan sudah cukup” and “kita mahu sandarkan ajaran Islam sebenar”
Really, YB? Ajaran Islam sebenar?
Well, then, how does your position in 2002 at the forum stand up to the following, reportedly said by the Holy Prophet, in the course of his final sermon?
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab. Also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white except by piety and good action.”
Is your position in 2002, YB, or that of the Holy Prophet noted above, ‘ajaran Islam sebenar’?
Malaysiakini quotes Nik Aziz yesterday as saying that “Islam hadhari is nonsense … so we can’t talk to the current Umno because it is promoting the wrong, deviant teachings.”
I agree that UMNO, given that it does not practise what it preaches, indulges in wrong, deviant and unIslamic practices, but perhaps Tok Guru would like to expound on which of the 10 stated principles of Islam Hadhari, are nonsense?
Which of the 10 Islam Hadhari principles, in the view of Pakatan Rakyat, offend ‘ajaran Islam sebenar’?
Oh, sorry, I’ve been presumptious in assuming that YB Dr Hassan’s announcement is representative of the well thought out and deliberated views leading to an informed concensus of PAS, PKR and DAP that Islam Hadhari offends ‘ajaran Islam sebenar’.
Well, was it?
Or has DAP suborned itself to the will of PAS on matters relating to Islam? PAS decides and DAP will go along?
Yes, YB Lim Guan Eng, tell us how your state government arrived at its decision to follow Selangor and prohibit Islam Hadhari?
Malaysiakini reports that Penang Deputy Chief Minister Mohammad Fairus Khairuddin confirmed that, based on the advice of more than 20 religious experts and former muftis, the Islam Hadhari concept would be discontinued in Penang.
YB Lim, in the name of transparency that we the rakyat have come to expect of Pakatan Rakyat, disclose the substance of the advice of those religious experts.
Tell us why your government has seen it fit to prohibit Islam Hadhari.
Were you aware, YB Lim, of the views of the Mufti of Perlis?
“Islam Hadhari may confuse many but there is good in it. The contents have not been obvious as it is only the branding that has been spoken about a lot,”, Mohd Asri Zainul Abidin is quoted by Malaysiakini to have said.
Is it the branding that is troubling, then?
No need for Hadhari? Islam suffices?
Well, PKR needs to be reminded that Anwar once mooted the idea of Masyarakat Islam Madani.
And did not JAKIM, in 1996, approve ‘Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamaah’ as the only Islam that is kosher here? Something I’m pretty sure that meets PAS’s approval.
If UMNOites now want to call themselves Hadharites, what do I care?
So if all this arises from a fixation with brands and labels, what next? What gets banned next?
No, I’m no Hadhari fan, but I’m against any notion of governments banning ideas and thoughts.
As Farish Noor put it, ‘there are ideas, and there can be stupid ideas; but to ban an idea simply because of its stupidity seems to be a rather stupid thing to do in itself’
And as Farish asks, ‘what does this entail for the Muslims and non-Muslims of Malaysia? What, in the final analysis, was the objective of this ban?’
Is it because Hadhari is an UMNO / Pak Lah initiative to counter PAS’s Islamisation, and so it does not sit well with the latter?
Is Pakatan Rakyat looking to continue with the politicising of Islam that has gone on for so long between UMNO and PAS?
YB Lim, YB Wan Azizah and YB Hadi, be reminded that you have a Pakatan Rakyat today for only one reason.
Many people who do not care for the flavour of the political aspirations of PAS went along with the idea of an alliance of sort between DAP, PKR and PAS because we thought and hoped that DAP and PKR would serve as a check and balance to PAS.
And that is why you have enough seats in Selangor and Penang to form the government!
Don’t you ever forget this!













a concerned voter
June 14, 2008
Dear Bro Haris,I don’t understand why politicians in Malaysia still play the religious cards when right now we are facing such difficult times with the fuel price hike and the escalating prices of essential goods.Why at this time?Don’t they have enough problems on their laps?Why don’t they spend more time and energy to solve our economical mess instead of engaging in religious matters?I really wish our politicians from both the BN and PR to be more secular at this point in time.Please politicians,Hadhari or no Hadhari,we the poor rakyat are struggling to survive!And Bro Haris,still remember during your ceramah in PJ for Tony Pua when you say “PAS lebih iklas daripada BN”.Wonder why you say that when in this posting you pointed out that YB Dr Hassan Ali from PAS answered in the negative when asked whether PAS will dismantle the bumi/non bumi distinction and remove the ‘special position’of the Malays if PAS is to come into power.In other word they too are going to uphold the ‘Ketuanan Melayu’ concept.Does this means iklas or sincere of PAS? I am beginning to get dizzy now……
a concerned voter,
If you recall, what I said at the ceramah was ‘PAS lebih iklas daripada UMNO’.
I still maintain that.
I had also said that we already knew the number of seats PAS were contesting. They only had a hope of a say in governance in alliance with DAP & PKR. And an UMNO / PAS alliance, even assuming they both won all seats they contested, would not able them to have a 2/3 government. Hence, my contention that we need not fear voting PAS.
malayamuda
June 14, 2008
Haris,
You definately will get on many people’s nerves. They will get angry as they dont have logical answers to your questions …………
Only thing they can do is quote Cave Men, or behave like Cave men. You put them to shame
Bornfree
June 14, 2008
All mankind is from Adam & Eve. Doesn’t that tell you something – all mankind is equal. Religion is between God & self and who is the better judge of mankind, only God. . We Penangites wants to feel Malaysian not whether we are Chinese Malays or Indians.So please YB Lim leave religion alone and do your job. We are watching you.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
I remmbered the forum. I was there. I noticed the MC was biased and only allowed people of Haris’es background to ask the questions.
I wasn’t allowed to ask because the MC knows i represent the anti-Harris view
So, the entire forum was a shenanigan, in my opinion.
Abdul Rahman,
You said :
I noticed the MC was biased and only allowed people of Haris’es background to ask the questions.
My response :
You mean you allowed the MC to trample all over your right of expression without protest? You came all the way for the forum and you allowed some biased MC to deny you your right to speak?
Didn’t your parents teach you to stand up for your rights?
Hmm, badly brought up, it would seem.
Does go some way to explain your behaviour in cyberspace
Malulah, Abdul Rahman
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Also, banning ISlam Hadhari is not about banning ideas per say.
It’s about protecting Islam and it’s purity. Something which I am sure, Harris Ibrahim and his likes are not familiar with.
Islam does not allow people selling their ideas in the name of Islam.
Ideas are never prohibited in Islam. But when:
a. The idea contradicts Islam
b. Contradicts and at the same time uses the Islamic name to promote it
then only the idea is resisted by Islam.
How do u explain Islam condeming the “Kafirrun”? Isn’t kaffirun people who subscribes to an idea?
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
And the Farish Nor comment is also stupid, because once a stupid idea becomes a belief, then undoing it will be very difficult and will result in confrontations and maybe even bloodshed.
What Haris and Farish is advocating is the Islam tolerates all deviated teachings albeit stupid or not.
I can understand Haris’es motivation for saying so because Haris is also subscribing to one of the other stupid ideas in Islam called the “Quran Alone” idea
Abdul Rahman,
It is all too simple to sit at a computer and hit at the keys and say ‘stupid ideas’.
Give me the privilege and honour of hosting a public debate in KL. I will choose the venue. You may choose the date and time.
I propose the topic : ‘The Holy Prophet, as evidenced from the Holy Qur’an, was a ‘Qur’an Alone’.
Being my guest, I leave you to choose whether you will propose or oppose.
Sab
June 14, 2008
The problem is the confusion Islam Hadhari brought and brings not its contents. And why should there be 10 points in the 1st place? Yet, none of these 10 points is seen in Badawi or in his regime and friends. So what’s the need for it? It was a political act and a political action needs to be taken to solve a political problem. End of the story.
Saying that it shouldn’t be discontinued because it will go on and may lead to the banning of other groups is to miss the point. The whole thing was about political expediency and it needs to be stopped. What ever that’s good be it in Islam or otherwise should be taken and appreciated. That’s the real Islam.
Sab,
I take your point.
However, Pakatan should make their reasons plain. And if the reasons made known is to put paid with UMNO’s politicising Islam, I shall be pleased to hold PAS to the same.
No more politicising Islam.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Also both Harris and Farish Nor needs to understand the difference between the concept of “faith” and “ideas”.
They’re both truly not the same. Becuase to become faith, whether an idea is stupid or not is irrelevant.
Besides, i think Farish Nor must’ve taken that line from Chris Rock’s dialouge in the movie “Dogma”.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Harris,
U also need to condemn Saidina Musa cause in 02:54, Saidina Musa punished apostates.
It’s clear that Saidina Musa didn’t tolerate different ideas.
Maybe Farish Nor needs to study the Quran a bit more
Please go and read your copy of the Qur’an properly, lah
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris says:
“Please go and read your copy of the Qur’an properly, lah”
My Reply: I did and here it is. My question is where did u read your Quran, Haris? Can’t wait to see how HAris is going to weasel himself out of this rut.
Also, 02:54 clearly contradicts Farish Nor’s statement as quoted by Haris. Now, Farish will be forced to condemn Saidina Musa AS.
Incidently, I visited the area where the Bani Israel was executed. It’s still eerie to this day.
02:54. And remember Moses said To his people: “O my people! Ye have indeed wronged
Yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, And slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); That will be better for you
In the sight of your Maker.” Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
How ‘slay yourselves’ comes to read as a death penalty defies all reasoning
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris says:
“Give me the privilege and honour of hosting a public debate in KL. I will choose the venue. You may choose the date and time.
I propose the topic : ‘The Holy Prophet, as evidenced from the Holy Qur’an, was a ‘Qur’an Alone’.
Being my guest, I leave you to choose whether you will propose or oppose.”
My Reply: Am all for it. But the problem is i am not in KL. I am out of the country right now.
So, i wont be able to entertain your invitation, yet.
Anyhow, i’ve prepared a website “antiantihadeeth.blogspot.com” debunking the entire “quran alone” nonsense.
Feel free to peruse and decide.
ps I might be back in KL in either September or October. I will inform u.
TQ
Decided a long time ago well before you conjured up your website. Have been to your site and my views remain unchanged
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris asks:
“How ’slay yourselves’ comes to read as a death penalty defies all reasoning”
My reply: err, didn’t the slay comes after “o my people u have indeed wronged yourselves”.
or you’re implyng that Saidina Musa asks his people to slay themselves for nothing?
So, they all sat in open fields, committed harakiri in carrying out the death penalty on themselves?
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris writes:
“Decided a long time ago well before you conjured up your website. Have been to your site and my views remain unchanged”
MY REPLY: Well, am not interested in changing your views (or the likes of you).
What i noticed is that the argument presented in my website can never be refuted by your sect, Haris Ibrahim.
In fact, when i do get back in October this year, i will be thrilled to have that forum with u.
Please keep me posted.
you said in your earlier comment :
Anyhow, i’ve prepared a website “antiantihadeeth.blogspot.com” debunking the entire “quran alone” nonsense.
Feel free to peruse and decide.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Also, the good thing about the website is that it had managed to stop many in-the-middle people from getting poisoned by the Quran Alone theory.
I know i cannot change the mind of the likes of you.
Also, check out the article on the hadeeth on flies at http://antiantihadeeth.blogspot.com/2008/05/hadeeth-on-flies.html
Helen Ang
June 14, 2008
Dear Abdul Rahman,
Since you’re online, can I repeat two questions I’d earlier asked you on May 24 which you did not deign to reply.
My Q: “So I’m just curious as to your opinion of Celcom as an advertiser as well as your take on whether there are any significant differences between the way PAS and Umno views pop culture.”
(pls re-read your Comment #53 and my Comment #54, http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2008/05/22/take-that-blouse-off-its-making-me-hot/)
My question relates to your schoolgirl ‘blouse’ post and the Maya Karin-Celcom product ambassador ref. is on the actress’ ‘split personality’ on the billboards in the East and West Coast.
I had asked you in the genuine spirit of enquiry and was hoping for a sincerely illuminating reply.
Btw, I’m chuffed that you seem to believe in gender equality & have dedicated a whole post to me (in addition to your earlier one on Haris).
http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/06/up-to-our-necks-with-islamophobes.html
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Helen Ang,
As for how PAS and UMNO view pop cultures, maybe u should go and ask PAS or UMNO about it.
Last I check, i wasn’t a ranking member of PAS or UMNO to make policies.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris asks:
“So, they all sat in open fields, committed harakiri in carrying out the death penalty on themselves?”
MY REPLY: Errr, yes. Doesn’t take a genuis to figure that one out, does it??
My reply : Your contention certainly wasn’t figured out by a genius, that’s for sure
The stronger opinion is that they “kill each other”. In other words, each one of them takes the live of the other.
It’s practical considering they number in the hundred and thousands.
Behold world, Rahman Celcom holds that the Qur’an commands apostates to commit harakiri or to kill each other. And that is his scriptural foundation for the death penalty for apostates.
Are you smoking some weed, Rahman Celcom?
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris,
What part of you do not understand?
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris the last posting didn’t appear the part i wanted.
Let me rephrase:
What part of “..faqtulu anfusakum…” you do not understand?
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
002.054
YUSUFALI: And remember Moses said to his people: “O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker.” Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: And when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Ye have wronged yourselves by your choosing of the calf (for worship) so turn in penitence to your Creator, and kill (the guilty) yourselves. That will be best for you with your Creator and He will relent toward you. Lo! He is the Relenting, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people, that is best for you with your Creator: so He turned to you (mercifully), for surely He is the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
So He turned and forgave the corpses!!!!!!!!!!!!
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris says:
“Behold world, Rahman Celcom holds that the Qur’an commands apostates to commit harakiri or to kill each other. And that is his scriptural foundation for the death penalty for apostates.
Are you smoking some weed, Rahman Celcom?”
MY REPLY: Again, what part of “…faqtulu anfusakum…” in 02:54 you do not understand, Haris?
It doesn’t take a genius to understand such a simple statement.
Unless of course, for those who have less than two brain cells operational.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Ohh, and it seems, all three major translators agree with me, Haris.
Kindda make u feel like you’re in bind, doesn’t it.
Plus one actually if u count Tafsir Ar Rahman.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
HAris Says:
” And that is his scriptural foundation for the death penalty for apostates.”
MY REPLY:The scriptual foundation for the killing of apostates is based on the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW.
Considering the Sunnah is also a Revelation from Allah SWT.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
The fact that Haris doubt 02:54 and tries to weasel his way out of the verse shows that Haris’es real ideology is NOT THE QURAN.
It is secular liberalism. He advocates his Quran Alone theory because that way he has many room to maneuver and in the end able to distort the real meaning of the Quran to fit his ideology.
He hates Al Hadeeth becuase Al Hadeeth provides context and interpretation of the Quran, which foils his attempt to distort the Quran.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
The fact that Haris doubt 02:54 and tries to weasel his way out of the verse shows that Haris’es real ideology is NOT THE QURAN.
It is secular liberalism. He advocates his Quran Alone theory because that way he has many room to maneuver and in the end able to distort the real meaning of the Quran to fit his ideology.
He hates Al Hadeeth becuase Al Hadeeth provides context and interpretation of the Quran, which foils his attempt to distort the Quran.
As a result, he will be left with his own ideology and nothing more.
Abdul Rahman
June 14, 2008
Haris says:
“So He turned and forgave the corpses!!!!!!!!!!!!”
MY REPLY: Forgiving Corpses? How did that happened?
All we see in the verse is about punishment. The cow worshippers transgreessed and their punishment is death.
How is that so difficult to understand Haris??
Ma
Worried Malaysian
June 14, 2008
I was reading Malaysiakini and it reported that PAS Youth moots Islamic Law in Pakatan States. I’m not certain what type of Islamic laws they are going to suggest but the mere idea of suggesting scares me. I don’t have any problem with Islamic Laws but the way it’s interpreted by different people how can we assured that it’s fair to Muslim and non-Muslim. Also, why Islamic law scares me? As a kid, We’re thought not question Islamic issues openly because it shows disrespect to the Muslim friends. Furthermore, questioning Islamic law may cause severe retaliation from the Muslim. For instance, the Nabi Muhammad caricature or the Lina Joy incident. It’s true that the caricature of Nabi Muhammad is viewed as disrespect to the Muslims but reaction from the Muslim world is a little too extreme (that’s my view). So, if we were to have Islamic Law in Malaysia it’ll be very difficult to question or challenge the legitimacy of certain Islamic law because it’s view as the supreme and perfect law. Also, by question the law might cause unwanted reaction from the Muslim community. Thus, how can we assure that fairness will be uphold?
Currently, we’ve good civil laws that protect all fellow Malaysian regardless of race and religion. The problem with the current Civil Law is the government not upholding it. PAS should focus on upholding the Civil Laws if they truly believe in Justice and fairness. Is PAS truly sought to create an equal and justice government through implementing Islamic law?
Klaw
June 14, 2008
Erm,
I told people to consider voting PAS for two reasons:
1. Non-sufficient numbers in Parliament to change constitution easily
2. More sincerity in ensuring race-blind policies in this country will be implemented.
If the chair of the Islamic Affairs committee of the Pakatan Rakyat state government of Selangor says PAS will not dismantle race based policies, then pardon my language, but why the fark did I do the above?
Klaw,
My 2 sen.
If we believe enough in ourselves, then if we put them in and they do not live up to expectations, we can get them out.
It is important that we track our reps performances from the word go and evaluate along the way.
If they are failing, we must detect this early, so that we too can start asap to get in a new set the next time round.
And, yes, the optimist in me leads me to have tremendous belief in the ability of my fellow anak Bangsa Malaysia to rise to the occasion when the need arises.
They did on 8308
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 15, 2008
Haris says:
“So He turned and forgave the corpses!!!!!!!!!!!!”
MY REPLY: Haris, you have reading problem or something?
The killing is PUNISHMENT. What has forgiving got to do with anything?
Meng
June 15, 2008
Actually it is interesting reading in Abdul Rahman’s site on some of the hadith which seem to be absurd esp on the fly but was well explained on its medicinal value.
Rahman no offence meant. However I do find some that are absurd eg: “a man who slept the night till morning (after sunrise). The Prophet said, “He is a man in whose ears (or ear) Satan had urinated. Could you enlighten me.?
There are many more in my collection.
Meng,
When your collection runs dry, let me know.
I will show you tombs of them.
Ready yourself for a bumpy ride, tho!
su
June 15, 2008
em..I’ll butt in for a while.
The problem I have with Islam Hadhari (the way I see it) is just that they (AAB and the rest) don’t practice what they preach. From the very little I have read of Islam Hadhari, the 10 points that they promote are quite sound.
What I don’t understand is why Selangor and Penang state govts felt that they had to ban the idea. Because now Pakatan Rakyat forms the govt in both these states, isn’t it enough to just NOT promote it? I read somewhere that Islam Hadhari was regularly “promoted” in mosques and suraus and other religious gatherings. That’s how a particular idea/belief system is spread. So wouldn’t it suffice that they don’t promote it anymore? Then surely the spreading of the idea would lessen a lot.
And I’m also curious about the Selangor Sultan’s position in all this. If I’m not wrong, the Sultan is the person who holds the position to protect Islam as a religion in His state. Was the Sultan referred to when the BN govt decided to preach the Islam Hadhari way of life? And was the Sultan referred to again this time when the state govt decided to ban it?
walski69
June 15, 2008
Dear Abdul Rahman,
“Anfusakum” appears twice in 2:54, both references pointing to the meaning “self”. If your understanding is to be taken as correct, then apostates have to kill themselves in order to be redeemed. Or if suicide is distateful, then have others do the killing instead.
But rather than becoming fixated on 2:54 itself, for that verse to have a proper (and sensible) context, it needs to be read with the following 3 verses, 55 – 57. In isolation, 2:54 could imply the meaning that you have been promoting, ad nauseum, for well over the last 2 years (see http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/guests.php?itemid=1643).
But assume for a moment that what you’re saying is correct. Then the following would have to be true, sequentially (based on 2:54-57):
1. Kill the apostates, or have them off themselves
2. Resurrect them, wait for divine lighting bolts to kill them again
3. Then, when they get resurrected – again – they are rewarded with all sorts of bounty.
4. Finally, tell them that it’s their own damn fault for having gone thru steps 1 and 2
This, of course, is ludicrous and nonsensical. The whole chain of 2:54-57 is what’s known as a PARABLE, whereby in the story lies a lesson, but the story itself is not the lesson.
Note the last bit of 2:57 – “… to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.”
Now obviously, unless there seriously is something wrong with you, taking 2:54 – 2:57 in toto, what is being conveyed here is the concept of repentence and elimination of one’s ego, and that idol worship harms not God, but the souls of the idol worshippers themselves. It does NOT promote the killing of apostates, as you have suggested.
So, it really matters not what “faqtulu anfusakum” means in 2:54, but what the entire 2:54-57 conveys. Besides, it’s not one of those verses where God commands something. Rather, it’s a retelling of a story – in this case what Moses said to his people, in response to their idolatory. And it’s told, IMHO, to show that God’s mercy is boundless.
Walski,
God & His angels send blessings upon you.
hkengmacao
June 15, 2008
Haris,
It is good to know from that Islam does not discriminates all of us. That is enough for me to know about Islam. I don’t care how the politicians brand Islam, just practise it by not discriminating Malaysian of different cultures and beliefs. If you guys can’t commiting such simple thing of not practising discrimination, then how to convince me your brand of Islam is more ‘true’ than others’?
So please, just practise what you like, don’t involve Islam in politics.
adam
June 15, 2008
haris… reminding PAS that without secularist like you they could not have as many seats in the parliament today? dare to tell DAP without muslims support they will not win as many seats? dare to tell PKR that without PAS help…they might only retain permatang pauh?
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 15, 2008
walski69 Says:
“Anfusakum” appears twice in 2:54, both references pointing to the meaning “self”.
MY REPLY: Dear walski69, this is where you’re wrong. The word “Anfusakum” means “yourselves”. In other words, it refers to a body of people. Hence the term “Ya Qaumihi” at the start of 02:%4
walski69 Says:If your understanding is to be taken as correct, then apostates have to kill themselves in order to be redeemed. Or if suicide is distateful, then have others do the killing instead.
MY REPLY: Yes it does. It means that apostates have to take their own lives, if one were to go by the Quran. However, since we have another source of Revelations, the Sunnah, we now know that the rule only applies under certain circumstances only.
The point is, the entire HAris Ibrahim article is negated by 02:54 and HAris now has to condemn SAidina Musa for not being tolerant to new ideas
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 15, 2008
walski69 says:
“But assume for a moment that what you’re saying is correct. Then the following would have to be true, sequentially (based on 2:54-57):
1. Kill the apostates, or have them off themselves
2. Resurrect them, wait for divine lighting bolts to kill them again
3. Then, when they get resurrected – again – they are rewarded with all sorts of bounty.
4. Finally, tell them that it’s their own damn fault for having gone thru steps 1 and 2″
MY REPLY: Such interpretation reflects desperation, in my opinion.
That’s because 02:54 and 02:55-56 (and also 02:57) talks about 3 different incidences.
Why is this so? Because at the start of 02:55 the word used is “wa izz” which means “and when”.
But if you noticed 02:56, it starts with the word “thumma”, which means “then”.
These are the points that the article below missed. http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/guests.php?itemid=1643
Therefore, such interpretation is void and unfounded.
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 15, 2008
walski69 and Haris reflects the true nature of the modern, secular and moderate Muslims. They are, now where near to being Quranic, despite their claim of being so.
THeir true nature is secular liberalism and whenever they find the Quran contradicting their beliefs, they change the meaning of the Quran.
I mean is God wanted to say “kill one’s ego”, He would’ve said so.
In fact, God says “..faqtulu anfusakum..” which clearly means “kill thyself”.
And such translation is united in all of the popular Quran translation, Shakir, Yusuf Ali, Palmer, Ar Rahman etc.
002.054
YUSUFALI: And remember Moses said to his people: “O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker.” Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: And when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Ye have wronged yourselves by your choosing of the calf (for worship) so turn in penitence to your Creator, and kill (the guilty) yourselves. That will be best for you with your Creator and He will relent toward you. Lo! He is the Relenting, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people, that is best for you with your Creator: so He turned to you (mercifully), for surely He is the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
alhadee
June 16, 2008
Abdul Rahman,
Your statement;
“..U also need to condemn Saidina Musa cause in 02:54, Saidina Musa punished apostates.
It’s clear that Saidina Musa didn’t tolerate different ideas…”
=================
My Answer:
If Saidina Musa didn’t tolerate different ideas, so what?
If Saidina Musa punished apostate, so what?
It is accepted that for different Prophets, there are different rules and the rules suited for the specific situation of that time.
During the time of Saidina Adam and Eve, marriage among the same siblings are allowed by God. Cain and Abel anyone?
In modern time you call that incest.
During the time of Saidina Luth, you don’t need to get married at all.
In modern time you call that adultery.
So the rules changes.
There is no single verse in the Quran that prescribe death as punishment for apostasy. And neither the Quran prescribe any worldy punishment at all.
Can you show me one verse Abdul Rahman?
Religious zealots like to quote a Hadith ‘..Man baddala Dinahu faqtuluh..’ or “..kill him who changes his religion..”
That is what religious zealots are good at – quoting hadiths indiscriminately.
It is well known at the time of the Medina society, there is no single formal army like we know today.
All able bodied Muslims are soldiers, ever ready to go for jihad when called for. Ever ready to carry arms when the security of the nation is at stake.
That was the structure for the state defense mechanism at that time. In our time, it is known as national security.
So it is well understood for that POINT OF TIME, if one apostate, or leaving Islam or entice anyone to do so, it constitute a breach to the national security. It is the same reason that any soldier cannot simply hand out a 24 hour notice like any one of us could to our employers. They must be formally discharge.
Why? Because it concern the defense of the state and nation. Because it is a breach in the national security.
We should ask ourselves. Does circumstances back then are the same to our present time? Does that hadith relevant for our time? Or should I say is it relevant to the time where there are formal army to defend the nation and country?
Maybe we should look at the case of one companion; Ubaidillah bin Jahsyin al-Asadiy, the first husband of Ummi Habibah.
He was a Muslim who later revert to Christianity at the time when the Prophet is still alive. Oh yes, there are murtads at that time of the prophet, my dear fellow Muslims.
Why is there no decree for his blood at that time? Why didn’t the Prophet declared that his blood is halal and any Muslim who came to contact with him should slain him?
The answer is this; his reversion to Christianity does not constitute a breach to national security since he was not in Medina and thus was not part of the informal army.
So if one apostate and that does not constitue a threat to the national security, he/she should be allowed to do so, and peacefully.
And in our time, that will include Kamariah and Lina Joy.
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 16, 2008
alhadee says:
“If Saidina Musa didn’t tolerate different ideas, so what?
If Saidina Musa punished apostate, so what?
It is accepted that for different Prophets, there are different rules and the rules suited for the specific situation of that time.”
MY REPLY: Unfortunately, the story is in the Quran, which means it applies to us until the end of time.
So, it means that what is done by Moses, must be followed by us now since we are required to follow the Quran in it’s entirety.
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 16, 2008
ALhadee says:
“Maybe we should look at the case of one companion; Ubaidillah bin Jahsyin al-Asadiy, the first husband of Ummi Habibah.
He was a Muslim who later revert to Christianity at the time when the Prophet is still alive. Oh yes, there are murtads at that time of the prophet, my dear fellow Muslims.
Why is there no decree for his blood at that time? Why didn’t the Prophet declared that his blood is halal and any Muslim who came to contact with him should slain him?”
MY REPLY: I think it’s because Ubaydullah dies while he was still in HAbsyah. It was long before the law on apostasy was instituted by the Prophet SAW.
walski69
June 17, 2008
Dear Abdul Rahman,
Since you’re obviously fixated on the grammatical aspects of God’s revelation, and seem to be cocksure that what 2:54 conveys is what you say it conveys, it is obvious to me that there is no point refuting your claims, since your mind has already been shut off to any other possible – and perhaps more humane – interpretation.
For you, being humane is being “modern, secular and moderate“, characteristics you seem to loathe so much. So be it. I leave it to God to judge me, and what you think doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, as far as I’m concerned.
You epitomize 2:6 & 2:7 – and since you claim (in your blog) to uphold the Quran, I leave it to you to look up those verses, gramatically analyze them, ad nauseum, and perhaps, in the process, spare some energy to reflect on what the verses convey.
In the end, it is God, and not you, who knows what’s in my, Haris’ or anyone’s heart, and I leave it to Him to judge.
I am not claiming to be absolutely correct, by the way. I only claim that my understanding is one that’s guided by the totality of the message conveyed in the Holy Quran – one of compassion, mercy, forgiveness and the absolute submission to the authority of God. And God alone.
Peace be with you… and have a wonderful life.
Walski,
Again, I pray that God and His angels bestow blessings upon you
alhadee
June 17, 2008
Abdul Rahman,
So, it means that what is done by Moses, must be followed by us now since we are required to follow the Quran in it’s entirety.
===============
My Anwer:
Muslims are required to follow the Quran.
And accepting the story in the Quran and acknowledging it to applied only to that period of time is included in following the Quran itself.
There are people who interpret the Quran differently. And if they do differently compare to your method, does that means they are rejecting the Quran?
Again you said;
=========
I think it’s because Ubaydullah dies while he was still in HAbsyah. It was long before the law on apostasy was instituted by the Prophet SAW.
==========
My Answer:
One of the reason that conservatives gave on why apostate should be punished is to safe guard the religion or what they term it as Maqasid al-Syariah.
Oh, I read about it Abdul Rahman.
An apostate is believe to be undermining Islam and feared to cause doubt in Islam among its followers.
The act of Ubaidillah was known to the people of Medina. So where does maqasid al-syariah comes in? Isn’t his act of reverting to Christianity will cause doubt on Islam among its followers in Medina at that time?
Where is maqasid al-syariah? I begin to suspect that this term is coined up by fundamentalists to justify oppresion towards people who disagree with them.
Like I said, the said hadiths on what should be done to the apostate was referring to state defense structure at that point of time. At that time, every Muslims are part of the arm forces. They are obligated to heed the call whenever the state is under threat.
To further strengthen my argument, lets look at the role of the non Muslims. The same punishment was meted out for non Muslims tribes who swear to protect the state yet failed to do so. Punishment – death.
Keyword- state defense & national security.
With that in mind, why should Kamariah and Lina Joy be punished?
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 17, 2008
walski69 Says:
June 17, 2008 at 2:17 am
Dear Abdul Rahman,
Since you’re obviously fixated on the grammatical aspects of God’s revelation, and seem to be cocksure that what 2:54 conveys is what you say it conveys, it is obvious to me that there is no point refuting your claims, since your mind has already been shut off to any other possible – and perhaps more humane – interpretation.
For you, being humane is being “modern, secular and moderate“, characteristics you seem to loathe so much. So be it. I leave it to God to judge me, and what you think doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, as far as I’m concerned.
——————
MY REPLY: Dear Walski69,
So what you’re saying my actions of sticking to the word of God as being INHUMANE?
The next logical step is to assume that the Quran is also INHUMANE?
My question to you is, since when are u advocating humanity? What i see is that you’re advocating secularism and anti religion nonsense. That all I see. Nothing humane about it.
I also would like to express the fact that the laws on Apostasy is far from being inhumane. It’s logical and necessary to prevent abuse of Islam, i.e. people wanting to keep their kids joins Islam and then leave afterwards.
Plus, the other term for secular liberalism, is secular humanism. The ideology assumes that it is fighting for humanity.
But, sad to say, ideas that frames this ideology are beggining to show it’s fallacy. Slowly, people are seeing how false this ideology is and it is far from fighting for humanity. It is more of fighting religion and any form of submission to God, among all.
For instance, feminism. Ever since the Feminists started suing lauderates for charging differently for clothes of men and women, people have begun to cast doubt upon their ideology. It turns out feminism is just another tool to promote lesbianism and to ppush for the destruction of the family institution. THe idea that men and women is the same is ludicrous and inhumane.
But, feminism is the cornerstone of secular humanism.
So, no walski69, you’re not being humane at all. You’re just being a secular liberalists.
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 17, 2008
Alhadee says:
“Muslims are required to follow the Quran.
And accepting the story in the Quran and acknowledging it to applied only to that period of time is included in following the Quran itself.”
+++++++++++
MY REPLY: DO u see anywhere that says 02:54 is time binded?
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 17, 2008
Alhadee says:
“One of the reason that conservatives gave on why apostate should be punished is to safe guard the religion or what they term it as Maqasid al-Syariah.
Oh, I read about it Abdul Rahman.
An apostate is believe to be undermining Islam and feared to cause doubt in Islam among its followers.
The act of Ubaidillah was known to the people of Medina. So where does maqasid al-syariah comes in? Isn’t his act of reverting to Christianity will cause doubt on Islam among its followers in Medina at that time”
MY REPLY:I think u need to read more carefully because Ubaidullah died in Habsyah not in Medina and he is not under the rule of Islamic Khalifah.
In fact, his conversion occured long before the rule on apostasy comes into being.
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 17, 2008
I read Haris’s article on Buddha and let me share what bro Bassam Zawadi wrote about the Quran Alone people. Just want to heed Haris of his inevitable outcome from his current ideology:
“Many Quranites tend to point out hadith, which may seem strange or too supernatural in order to believe it. This is nothing more than an “appeal to emotion” fallacy. Here is the testimony of one Quranite who became an agnostic…
I was in the middle of laughing at the stories and silently mocking them, when suddenly it hit me that they are no more absurd than the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, that Moses split the ocean and turned a stick into a snake, or that Solomon had conversations with animals.
So here we see a Quranite who left Islam because he found the virgin birth and Solomon’s conversations with animals to be absurd. These are to be found in the Qur’an. Will the Quranites accept this as an argument? They will say that these stories are not absurd and that people must put faith in them. Well then why don’t the Quranites do the same with the hadith that they find strange? Who draws the objective standard as to what is too absurd to be true?
This is nothing more than an “appeal to emotion fallacy” and it is to be ignored.”
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib
June 17, 2008
walski69 says:
“You epitomize 2:6 & 2:7 – and since you claim (in your blog) to uphold the Quran, I leave it to you to look up those verses, gramatically analyze them, ad nauseum, and perhaps, in the process, spare some energy to reflect on what the verses convey.
In the end, it is God, and not you, who knows what’s in my, Haris’ or anyone’s heart, and I leave it to Him to judge.”
MY REPLY: Don’t u think that my grammatical analysis is meant for getting the TRUE meaning of the verses. As opposed to you and HAris’es “wishful thinking” interpretation of the verses?
You seem to have objections against those who wishes to get the correct meaning of the Quran? I wonder why>
And I doubt Allah SWT will take kindly to those who lies in His name as he states it very clearly:
002.078
YUSUFALI: And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
PICKTHAL: Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.
SHAKIR: And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:”This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
PICKTHAL: Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
SHAKIR: Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Paul Warren
June 18, 2008
Somehow by the day, it would seem PAS is begining to show its true colours. Without a care int ehworld they want Ella and the other female singer not to sing at the Soccer match. And As much as Tok Aziz rejects Islam Hadhari as nonsense, it is obvious he himself is floating on nonsense itself. His version of Islam is pointedly in conflict with what “the Quran says” about Malay rights and Bumiputra and non-Bumiputra. As long as this conflict remains Tok Aziz’s preachings only go to the dogs as far as I am concerned.
Honestly these guys by dragging Islam into the ring they only tarnish Islam. Bill Clinton had his Lweinsky affair. The church or the religion of Christianity did not get tarnished in any way.
With Tok Aziz talking so much may I ask him what the rate of rape in his state is? Or better still what is the rate of incest there? Maybe he cna then answer, considering everything that happens under his nose is Islam inspired, how then Islam has contributed to the incest and rape cases in Kelantan?
I will beg og him and all PAS followers, keep Islam personal. Keep it out of the political arena and the public arena as there are so many who will betray what it is supposed to represent.
alhadee
June 19, 2008
Abdul Rahman,
=============
I think u need to read more carefully because Ubaidullah died in Habsyah not in Medina and he is not under the rule of Islamic Khalifah.
====================
My Answer:
Wrong again. The ruler in Habsyah at that point of time was Najasyi or Negus who later reverted to Islam. He died as a Muslim.
No punishment comes from him either. No declaration that Muslims who live in Habsyah are not allowed to revert to other religion.
And better still, during his years as Muslim, not even an ounce of Syariah was upheld in Habsyah. And historical records pretty much suggest that Negus continues doing what he has done before his reversion to Islam- rule with the Bible.
This is one man whom the Prophet himself proclaimed as pious and a believer.
Still you have not answer me; where does maqasid al-syariah comes in? Where does the ‘method to protect religion’ comes in here?
Maqasid al-syariah is very similar to our Sedition law. Do or say something which is regarded as deviants, you will get it.
It has been used for many centuries against those who are deemed as deviants. Syiah is one example. The crux of the matter is this; maqasid al-syariah has been used to ensure the political power remain within certain group.
In Malaysian context, it has been used to ensure that political power remain with the present ruling party and to surpass the opposing voice.
To further support my argument, consider this, not only the Quran does not prescribe any worldly punishment for apostasy, there are many verses which guaranteed the freedom of religion for all.
For example; Al-Kahf Verse 29;
‘And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve; (Shakir)’
‘Say, “The truth is from your Lord”: Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): (Yusuf Ali)’
And maybe we can take from sura Al-Ghasiya Verse 21-26
‘Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder.’ (21)
‘You are not a watcher over them;’ (22)
‘But whoever turns back and disbelieves,’(23)
‘Allah will chastise him with the greatest chastisement.’(24)
‘Surely to Us is their turning back,’(25)
‘Then surely upon Us is the taking of their account.’ (26)
(Translation by Shakir)
Another statement from Abdul Rahman:
===============
‘DO u see anywhere that says 02:54 is time binded?’
==============
My Answer;
Hello la brother. Let’s read the Quran again.
From Shakir, Sura Al-Baqarah verse 54
‘ And when Musa said to his people: O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people, that is best for you with your Creator: so He turned to you (mercifully), for surely He is the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.’
The Quran specifically said:
1. ‘.. Musa said to HIS people..’ Comment: Are anyone of us belong to Musa’s ummah? If you want to admit that you are Musa’s ummah, go ahead.
2. ‘O my people!’ Comment: There we have it, Saidina Musa talking to HIS people or his Ummah. Whatever command that follows are only for his people/ummah.
In conclusion; we have Saidina Musa talking to his people, and whatever follows from there is ONLY for HIS people. It does not include me, you or anyone else in present time.