Selamat datang ke Darul Al-Taliban
June 24, 2008
UPDATE at 5.46pm : The office of the State Secretary faxed a copy of the MPKB circular and pamphlet relating to the dress code to me. They appear below.
Helen Ang took the initiative to contact someone at MPKB. Her take, too, appears below.
________________________
The circular
The text of the circular
The dress code pamphlet
Zoomed in portion of the pamphlet relating to high heels
______________________________
By Helen ang
As far as I can make out, the Kota Bharu municipal council (MPKB) issued a circular and a pamphlet, which were two separate documents.
Council public relations director Azman Md Daham clarified that the circular, which is given out annually, contained the directives on the dress code for women.
Part of the dress code or tutup aurat stipulation includes the wearing of tudung by Muslims, and this is in adherence to an amendment made in 2002 to the bylaws pertaining to commerce and trade practices, he explained.
Azman said the council at the same time distributed a pamphlet on ‘Etika pakaian wanita Islam’, that is, its guidelines on how Muslim women traders falling under the MPKB ambit ought to dress.
This pamphlet is part of its Islamic education campaign. Azman said over the phone to me that the guidelines quoted do discourage thick lipstick and striking make-up, as well as revealing clothes (the example he gave was that one’s midriff should not be bared).
He said the council while it hopes that Muslim women should comply with the advisory, however would not be enforcing the lipstick guidelines as a regulation. It has no legal authority to do so.
As such, I would not read the situation as there is imposed a ban on high heels and lipstick – which the MSM headlines are screaming.
The confusion caused by the alarmist newspaper reports could have arisen from a conflation of circular and pamphlet. The circular (per se) faxed to us contains nothing in it mentioning that the directive “was issued to prevent incidents like rape and illicit sex as well as to safeguard the morals and dignity of Muslim women” as stated by MSM.
I’m however not excluding the possibility that this may have been mentioned in the ‘decorous dressing’ pamphlet, but unable to double-check as its now after office hours that this post is written.
Taking a broader perspective, other agencies and corporate bodies, even MacDonalds have some sort of dress code. You would not see a MacD staff clacking around the restaurant in high heels, nor is it sensible to do so if you’re in the food service industry. And the Kota Bharu circular was targeted at women in the service sector. An interesting caveat is that high-heeled shoes with rubber soles are permitted.
On the matter of cosmetics, I’m sure there are unwritten codes in the private sector outside of Kelantan where women employees are similarly discouraged from thick and garish make-up, depending on one’s line of work.
Doubtless, the PAS brand of fostering morality is rather authoritarian – this topic requires a further discussion. But my immediate concern is that MSM relishes painting the Kelantan authorities in the most narrow-minded light whenever the opportunity arises. Our reaction must not rise to the MSM sensationalism bait.
__________________________________
Ignorance of the law has never been a defence.
Yet, if the law is not made manifest, punishment for its breach would be most unjust.
So, be warned…
And do not blink as you pass through or you may miss the new road signs, at your own peril.
You can read all about this HERE












June 24, 2008 at 3:17 pm
What a funny world we are living in.
Speaking of ignorance, it’s grammatically incorrect to call it “darul al-taliban” since the article “al” is already used in darUL.
June 24, 2008 at 3:37 pm
haris, you kidding me right?
please tell me that gerbang is not real …
hamzah,
I would have said ‘April fool’ except that it’s not 1st April.
Okay, lah, that young artist ‘who’s the angel?’ sent it to me.
June 24, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Dont you know that the sight of a woman’s red lips or her high heels is enough for any man to commit rape/adultery/incest ? We must destroy all such filth from the face of the earth lest it corupts our minds…
Duhhhh!!!!
June 24, 2008 at 3:53 pm
What la you Harris? Why do you put those pics on your otherwise clean site? So pornographic!
I have a hard on just by looking at the lipstick and red high heels!
art harun,
Taubatlah, Bro
June 24, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Harris!
Like Hamzah, my first thoughts were: hahaha, damn funny. You’re kidding, right? And you’re NOT?!!! And these guys are part of the Pakatan Rakyat? The same Pakatan Rakyat-guys we are looking to as our saviours??!
So how lah, now? Is this what’s in store for all of us come September 16 or earlier? Then, what do I do with my lipstick (aiyoh! exact colour oso!) and my high-heels, man??!
Sorry to be all questions and exclamation marks today. But really lah, but you’ve left me truly speechless!
June 24, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Funny, I don’t find the red lipstick and the red stiletto raising my temperatures. Am I becoming sexually ‘confused’? Pray, tell me I am not! I love my wife of 20 years.
June 24, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Wonder what are next? No long hair, no long finger nail, no nail oil, no colour hair, no artificial eye lash, no sunglass, no ear ring, no ring, no artificial denture, no tight pants, no semi transparent blouse, etc???
June 24, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Haris,I thanked my lucky stars for not being born in Kelantan! I liked lipstick of various shades but I am crazy about high heel shoes and I have dozens of them!I will fight toes and nails if someday PAS came to me and said I can’t put them on.I will ask them to go to HELL!!!
a concerned voter,
I know many men will join you in the fight to defend lipstick and high heels.
I will.
June 24, 2008 at 5:15 pm
PAS’s only goal is taking everyone back to the biblical times of wars and instability.
They cannot move with time.
They look forward to everything Taliban and abhor modernism as anti-religious.
June 24, 2008 at 5:17 pm
If it takes a lipstick and a pair of high heel shoes to sent these PAS fellas into a sex rampage,they have certainly failed by their faith,and failed very miserably too!!
June 24, 2008 at 5:17 pm
blaming women for courting rape.
just how uncivilized these monkeys are when it’s their own animal behavior they cannot control.
June 24, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Sir Haris, Jed Yoong (a frequent visitor to Kota Bharu) contends that no such by-law has been passed:
- from Jed Yoong’s blog
Scott,
Thanks for the link.
I’ve also had the MPKB circular and dress code pamphlet faxed to me. Will put that up soon as an update.
June 24, 2008 at 5:29 pm
The grammar is incorrect. It should be Darut Taliban unless the super-imposer cannot read neither Jawi or Arabic script.
I wonder how much $$$ that a woman could save by not buying lipsticks and high-heels.
June 24, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Also:
June 24, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Tick Tok, Tick Tok, Pas get sexited on hearing this sound, very sexy to them and appealing. Plus looking at the red lips LIPS ho ho ho go crazy.
Tak boleh tahan loh
June 24, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Visvanathan M said:
Dont you know that the sight of a woman’s red lips or her high heels is enough for any man to commit rape/adultery/incest ? We must destroy all such filth from the face of the earth lest it corupts our minds…
Don’t forget the white school blouses too.
Okay, so it’s not a law. Just an advisory to not wear high heels with lipsticks. Just as the white blouse thing was a “demand” from some NGO. And the aborted protest by PAS Youth against Ella and Mas Idayu is just a protest. Sure, sure.
I’m not sure who the perv is sometimes … methinks they doth protest too much.
June 24, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Its actually quite humourous to observe how those who profess to champion freedom of religion and continually complain that they have the right to their views even if it may not be right nevertheless find it difficult to restrain themselves from trying to ridicule the religious views of others that differ from theirs. So if they believe that lipstick and high heels are out and a part of their belief is that they have the right or religious duty to enforce it,practise what you preach and respect their right to freedom of religion,even if you disagree with their beliefs. You may try to show them that they may not be right, but ridiculing and making fun of them is unbecoming.
June 24, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Dear Haris,
Read everything in the MSM with a pinch of salt.
BUT…does it actually matter if it’s a by-law or an advisory? It still reflects the level of thinking right?
I can understand PAS’ stand on this issue. But what’s Pakatan Rakyat’s stand?
Regards,
http://umnodu.blogspot.com
“Cracks are appearing”
June 24, 2008 at 6:07 pm
The circular stated that the directive, targeted at Muslim women employees working in food outlets and other business premises, was issued to prevent incidents like rape and illicit sex as well as to safeguard the morals and dignity of Muslim women in Kelantan.
HOW ABOUT BRINGING BACK THE CHASTITY BELT? LOCK & KEY NOTHING CAN BE SAFER THAN THIS!
June 24, 2008 at 6:30 pm
I don’t get it. It’s a dress code. What’s wrong with a dress code?
Or is it because it’s a religous based dress code?
June 24, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Eeeks. No lipstick, no high heels. Then I’m condemned to die an old maid. Honestly, which man would look at me sans lipstick, sans high heels.
We are doomed, sistas.
June 24, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Finally, someone is taking positive steps towards eradicating exploitation of women.
When women work, they should be paid for the amount of work they do, not for exposing their bodies.
If my daughters or sisters are working and this dress code is passed, i shall be very happy.
I think the Kelantanese knows about the wisdom of these rules. That’s why they voted for PAS over and over again.
June 24, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Harris!
What a bunch of Wankers u r all!
The Lipstick, began a very,very,very long time ago{6,000 years} as a Herbal Gloss{protection} against Chapped Lips!
Women & Men who went into battle had to protect themselves against the frost etc! This had a dull & boring colour{opaque} so a little colour was added{henna},all natural & healthy!
The same applies to High Heels!
The heels is supposed to assist yr Lumbar!
But its has been used by wanabe politicians who need to distract us!
We do not need to dress like the Whites!
We do not need to dress like the Arabs!
We need to dress & be Malaysians!
I would love to wear my sarong/dhoti, but my tummy gets in the way??? So I am working on this!
When able: airy sarong/dhothi{cotton}, very loose cotton top & chappals!
Females! Pls Pls Pls wear some natural lipgloss to protect!
Chiao!
June 24, 2008 at 8:00 pm
How many times do these ninkampoops in state administration have to be told that rape has more to do with power and dominance rather than sex?
Maybe the Muslim men in MPKB should undergo an educational course on upholding the dignity of humans (women) thereby increasing our capacities for moral judgment in complex settings, which to me would do more justice to Islam, rather that imposing superficial and dogmatic “arahans” that impinge on personal freedoms!
Really, at the end of the day, I pray that the women of Malaysia, and in particular, Muslim women, stand up to the ignorance that prevails in our community.
Yours humbly,
Sambal Muncha.
June 24, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Abd Rahman… Harris is against anything that is islamic Values… he’s a munafik….
June 24, 2008 at 8:17 pm
By the way, WHAT IS ISLAMIC dressing anyway?
Not dressing like an Arab does not make you any less Muslim. We only have to look at our pluralistic Islamic traditions, culture and heritage.
I just wish Muslims would stop behaving like we’re one homogenous group. This only adds to the world’s ignorance.
This is why an Aussie once asked, “hey can you speak Muslim????”
June 24, 2008 at 8:24 pm
As a matter of side interest, the number #1 & #2 Top Clicks in theSun today, i.e. the most viewed links in the paper’s online version are ‘Miss World Malaysia 2008′ and ‘Miss Universe 2008′ (pix galleries).
Lots of lipstick and high heels there. I’m MOST IMPRESSED with theSun’s persistent claim of “good journalism”, high standards of reporting, educating the readers, etc.
June 24, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Jed yoong says that this is a lie.
http://jedyoong.com/?p=283
Funny, we have a non-muslim defending Kelatan and we have a muslim named Haris spreading lies about Kelantan.
June 24, 2008 at 8:30 pm
For one, the pamphlet HAris quotes above has nothing to do with the circular.
Notice the word MPKB-CAKNA ANAK MUDA.
The pamphlet is just a guide for a CAKNA program.
It seems Haris is up to his old tricks again.
hahahaha
June 24, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Oh, for the love of God!!
I’m just so disgusted.
June 24, 2008 at 8:42 pm
and looks like Helen Ang is more reasonable and rational than Harris…
June 24, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Haris, apa masalah kamu ?
Soal MPKB maHu melaksanakan apa juga peraturan dan tatacara, itu adalah hak mereka, hak pihak berkuasa dalam sebuah negeri yang dipimpin oleh Parti yang mendapat MOJIRITI LEBIH 2/3.
Hak rakyat Kelantan yang tinggal di Kelantan yang menentukan, orang luar ada dua pilihan, ikut atau tidak perlu masuk Kelantan.
Arahan itu masih normal, biasa dan waras berbanding dengan pengumuman harga petrol yang dinaikkan oleh Perdana Menteri kamu.
Haris, apa masalah kamu ?
June 24, 2008 at 9:01 pm
LOL Evehawa. It can’t be all that bad, sista. Or else our population will start dwindling. And it will be all PAS’ fault.
I think I could still get laid sans makeup and lipstick. Then again, I could be perasan.
Remember how some bozos called for women to wear chastity belts some time ago?
June 24, 2008 at 9:57 pm
From Abdul Rahman:
Finally, someone is taking positive steps towards eradicating exploitation of women.
I think the problem there is that use of lipstick and high heels can hardly be called exploitation. It isn’t like they’re forced to wear lipstick and high heels. Or wear perfume and jewellery. There are many women who are happy enough to not wear any makeup at all, just as there are many who would refuse to walk out of the house without makeup. It’s down to the individual woman, how she wants to present herself. It’s a little simplistic to assume that they’re being exploited.
When women work, they should be paid for the amount of work they do, not for exposing their bodies.
Absolutely! And if they want to wear lipstick and high heels while doing their work, they should be able to.
If my daughters or sisters are working and this dress code is passed, i shall be very happy.
I think what’s more important is whether they are happy.
I think the Kelantanese knows about the wisdom of these rules. That’s why they voted for PAS over and over again.
Either that or they’ve been so programmed and conditioned that they’ve forgotten to question, and are like lambs to the slaughter or retarded automatons. I’m not implying that the Kelantanese are like that (we wouldn’t have Zaid Ibrahim, Mohd. Salleh Sulong, Nik Aziz, ekcetera, otherwise) but I think it’s important that you realise that you cannot make sweeping remarks like that to cover the entire state.
People are individuals and have the capability to think for themselves. Some of them actually use that capability.
June 24, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Pak Haris,
We had a good laugh to otherwise a boring day when we read the news article in Kompas.com over here in Indonesia.
Stupidity at it’s highest level, I’ll say. Why can’t PAS used their time to look after the welfare of the rakyat especially the poor instead of making stupid statements and rulings, one after another.
Although I supported PR, I am glad that in the constituency I voted for is not a PAS candidate.
June 24, 2008 at 11:19 pm
We, RAKYAT in Kelantan will send PAS TO HELL FOREVER in the next election!!!
June 24, 2008 at 11:27 pm
I just stumbled here when I logged into my blog. Yes, the topic of lipstick sounded just “too interesting” to pass up.
Well, after reading the comments and seeing the drawings I just say: let women do as they please! You think that every single day the want to wear heels? Nah! Feet hurt with them.
You think women want to wear make-up every day? Nah! Taking it off is a drag.
What is vital is their freedom to chose.
As for sin? It is all in a man´s head. A woman could be covered from head to toe, like a tamal (mexican dish) and still men in their dirty minds could imagine her naked. LOL It is men who should be wearing eye covers, chastity belts or suffer a light lobotomy to stop their sinning minds! LOL
So, good luck in your elections.
Greetings from the other side of the world!
wp1957
Monterrey, Mexico
June 25, 2008 at 12:13 am
These Taliban wannabe are nuts, they should just move to Afghanistan or some ultra conservative Middle-East countries where they will feel more at home.
June 25, 2008 at 12:24 am
Dear Brother Haris,whether this is a law or just a dress code guideline is beside the point.What is disgusting is that women are still to be blame for inviting rape when it is the men who couldn’t control themselves,thus they have to resort to limiting a woman’s dressing,denying her the right to beautify herself physically.We are living in the 21st century of advance technologies.We went to colleges and universities and we hold good jobs too.So why can’t we put on some lipstick and wear high heel shoes and be able to feel good about it?I think for a woman to put on lipstick and wear high heel shoes is just like a man applying some hair cream and putting on a tie.So,what is the fuss?
June 25, 2008 at 12:26 am
With fuel price going up,these men must have their dicks going up as well the moment they see a lady with lipstick and high heels… for God sake, they are so much things going on in this world,where we need to get our priorities right.Maybe, these guys are doing what the BN government ask them to do, change your lifestyle,and they are helping the women folks in their state I think,very thoughtful.
Life on earth is short,we won’t live forever,they are better things we ought to concentrate on,the daily cost of living has gone up,we are losing a battle against inflation which is setting in fast and the last thing we need is a Taliban way of managing the state, its short sighted and certainly stepping backward.
May God Bless All Of Us!!!.
June 25, 2008 at 1:05 am
Why so many unwanted funny things happening around this Bodohland ?
Are we Malaysian men not really civilised enough ?
Or
Our Malaysian women too sexy ?
No ! No ! N0 !
Think ! Think ! Think !
We are civilised Malaysian men.
Only those un-educated cum tend to be religious guys have cause all this unwanted problems.
Don’t tell me , even a male parent cannot give their own female children a safety protection from any sex intruders.
Many examples like grand-father, father , brother and male relatives raping their own female kins.
Can we say this a god’s will ? !
No………….! How the female dress up wouldn’t cause any problem to a good self control and really religious educated man.
This is man made , due to short of self control, conscience , and self discipline.Also those natang lack behind in the 21st century age.
Shit !……….Natang…….. !
June 25, 2008 at 1:47 am
They are proud to declare that they tolerate my religion . But I don’t have to tolerate this shit do I?
June 25, 2008 at 1:54 am
Bravo Helen Ang! A big slap to sex maniac men especially Haris. Hahaha.
June 25, 2008 at 4:04 am
Note: To Haris, if the posting below could get you into trouble under sedition act, please do not publish. I don’t wish you to get into trouble because of my posting.
Why don’t MPKB starts with sending a warning letter to the Sultanah of Kelantan, wife of the Kelantan Islamic Head for not covering aurah properly according to Taliban standard.
Read the letter again and you will find:
“MEMBANGUN BERSAMA ISLAM”
“KEDAULATAN RAJA KEAMANAN RAKYAT”
Unless they do as I suggest above, please ignore whatever circular/fatwa/decree from Religious Zealots. They only have balls when confronting ordinary folks.
That is what religious zealots are good at. It comes as no surprise since in their mind, God is also practicing double standard.
June 25, 2008 at 4:28 am
MUH Says:
June 25, 2008 at 12:13 am
These Taliban wannabe are nuts, they should just move to Afghanistan or some ultra conservative Middle-East countries where they will feel more at home.
MY REPLY: Maybe they should move to the real Taleban Country
http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/06/life-in-taleban-country-pt-3.html
June 25, 2008 at 4:46 am
We’re sensitive to Islamic Culture but how much do we need to accommodate? Is PAS truly seeking a middle ground between all Malaysian and all Muslims? I’ve always proclaim to my western friends that Muslims in Malaysia is very tolerance to women and non-Muslims. I’m adamant for folks that criticize Muslims being backward or irrational. But sadly, Malaysia Islam is moving towards more towards the Gulf area Islam culture.
Once again, I respect Islam but please do implement rules and regulations with rational reasoning. To all PAS leaders you’ve truly scared me now and I’m the most liberal that accept Islam Malaysian. What would others think of you? Please be sensitive to others.
June 25, 2008 at 5:01 am
This is my perspective about the dress or Islamic codes. Though I do not like the implementation of the rules and regulation but this is Kelantanese choice. They voted for PAS as their state government. This is the beauty of federalism.
Nevertheless, we must not allow PAS to continue to teach their view of Islam through the government. My fear is more and more Muslims might share PAS Islamic teaching; thus, this might spread to progressive Muslims at Selangor, Johor, Perak, etc.
I would suggest Mr. Harris to work with other Muslims to share their own understanding of Islam. So, fellow Muslims would have comprehensive and indepth understanding of Islam from different angles.
June 25, 2008 at 5:51 am
Dear Helen Ang,
I think your article is quite objective apart from the title.
But am a bit confused because your article is all jumbled up with Haris’s graphics so I cannot tell which is which.
June 25, 2008 at 6:42 am
So Helen please correct me where i am wrong
June 25, 2008 at 7:17 am
Dear Haris,
Have you read this about what Ian Chin has now said about Mahathir?
http://malaysiakini.com/news/84990
“…Dr Mahathir for what he had done and for what he is trying to do is a devil incarnate but to those who had suffered under his hands, even that description may be rather complimentary,” said Chin in open court during a hearing of an election petition in Sibu, Sarawak, this afternoon.
Chin also accused Mahathir of lying when the former premier alluded to the fact he “absconded” from the camp.
“But two did leave, one because of illness and the other the wife’s illness. Everyone who was not otherwise sick had to remain and we all did save for the duo; with each given a certificate after the end of stay.
“That Dr Mahathir should even resort to lying about me absconding from the camp speaks volume for the character of such person; he is lying by resorting to repeating it as if it is the truth.
“This is the same prime minister who lied to the world that (former deputy premier) Anwar Ibrahim could have deliberately hurt himself when the latter appeared with the black eye. He is also waving a police report perhaps for the purpose of intimidating me or to blacken me in the eyes of the public.”
While Mahathir conceded the existence of such ‘work camps’, he said these were held for participants to learn about Malaysia’s political system, the Barisan Nasional concept, ethics and moral values and democracy.
Chin also took offence with Mahathir in stating that there was a police report made against the judge for hiding his past when hearing a certain case.
“Dr Mahathir, by waving the supposed police report the way he did, lent support to the general held view that this prime minister kept a docket on everyone useful but with a skeleton in their cupboard so that he can manipulate then on pain of disclosing the skeleton,” he said in a lengthy defence against the ex-PM’s remarks.
“I thought only the Stasi of the then communist East Germany do such a thing but then it was done for the benefit of the state not for an individual.
“In my view, he is trying to exploit this general belief to wave that supposed police report to get the public to believe that I have committed something unlawful which he is privy to and which the public is not unaware so that my integrity could be put under suspicion to make what I have revealed unbelievable.
“Let me declare to the public that I am as clean as a whistle and my life is an open book.”
Chin also argued that his shocking revelations on the state of judiciary during Mahathir’s times was not because he was passed over for promotion.
He tendered a number of letters he wrote to two different chief justices in which he told them that his wife wanted to return to Kota Kinabalu.
“Since I do not want promotion before, now or in the future nor any appointment after my retirement, what do I get out of all this knowing very well that I will be the target for vilification?
“It is this. I must be able to sleep well after I retired knowing that I have done all I can, like all the crucified judges before me, to tell Malaysians the danger they are in regarding the state of the judiciary.”
Chin revealed more about the boot camp he attended as a judge and the humiliation which participants were forced into.
“…You surrendered your wallet, your air ticket and handphone when you checked into the camp and you cannot go anywhere as it is in an isolated place and you cannot leave for anywhere as there is no transport.
“You are totally cut off from the outside world, with no newspapers or television and with selected news conveyed to you at the assembly for the purpose of sampling reaction such as the news that a certain party had won a by-election which elicited some applause from some young officers but they earned the rebuke of a High Court judge as that was an improper display of partisanship.
He said the objective of the boot camp was to “make us take orders” and a “junior officer was made our leader from whom we have to take orders from and one Sessions Court judge who disagreed with that was made to publicly apologise on a podium to his junior officer leader”.
“Another method employed was to chisel away the view we held of how independent we should be in our job as High Court judges and this they did by punishing or humiliating a High Court judge by making him carry a brick all the time after he broke the egg which each of us must carry wherever we went, including marching.
“All these were, in my view, for the purpose of softening us to take order for the benefit of the government, meaning Dr Mahathir.”
June 25, 2008 at 7:20 am
Its a wonder really how so many muslims insult their religion and display their intelligence with a streak of pride!
Since Pas has linked cosmetics, shoes and attire with sex and rape, perhaps they should do a paper on psychology backed with clinical studies and present the thesis to the world for peer review! I’m sure IIU will present them with a doctorate! Quack psychiatrists!
On the other hand, the tudung and veil can be described as S&M or bondage sex! It comes in handy when you need it!
June 25, 2008 at 8:39 am
[...] 25 JUNE 2008: Haris Ibrahim has scans of the flyers. Judge for yourself if it is equivalent to a banning law. Possibly related posts: (automatically [...]
June 25, 2008 at 9:08 am
It’s funny how Muslims are automatically considered munafik when they criticise or question the religious practices the religious ‘leaders’ insist on imposing. It appears that PAS is beyond reproach, and can do no wrong, no matter how silly and ridiculous these ‘laws’ appear from a non-Muslim looking from the outside. Now, before I am told to shut up for being ‘ignorant’ or merely a kafir, I do see that such rules will have a detrimental impact on how the world sees Malaysia to be, a so-called ‘moderate Islamic’ country. Time and time again, the womenfolk are targeted while the men are left untouched by these learned religious leaders. It appears that Islamic is much about controlling women ala middle-eastern culture.
June 25, 2008 at 9:16 am
Good morning Haris,
Apologies for temporarily diverting from the topic, but thought you’d like to know that today’s Borneo Post did a headline story on Justice Ian Chin’s reply to Dr. M’s allegations.
http://www.theborneopost.com/?p=37424
Judge opens Pandora’s box
By Raymond Tan
Ian Chin details humiliation at boot camp to soften them to take orders of previous administration
June 25, 2008 at 9:23 am
Abang Haris, that picture that “Selamat Datang….” – are our Kelantanese friends left-hand drive?
June 25, 2008 at 9:35 am
Dear Haris,
First, let me apologize for spelling your name wrong. I’m sorry. Unforgivable error.
Second, and this is for all the idiots out there who don’t understand what this blog is all about: why is Haris anti-Islam or munafik or whatever else if he publishes this information for us to read? I’ve reread the posting, and he doesn’t actually say anything about anything. The pictures and Helen Ang do the talking.
So if you see ‘bad’ things, baby, look no further than inside your head! Purleese lah, grow up and smell the shit inside you!
p.s.
Jeyamahesan, somewhere above, says something about high heels… but, no lah, not for lumbar support! If anything, they screw your lumbar good and proper!
The real reason for high heels? Long, long, ago, ladies wore gowns that touched the ground. When they went outside, onto the streets, their gowns trailed in the muck – sewege, urine (human and animal) and other gruesome stuff! Cos there were no drains then, and everything flowed onto the streets.
So those ladies who could afford it, took to having little ‘platforms’ built onto their shoes – to keep them above the crap lah. So, since only the rich could afford it, it became a status symbol. And why do we wear them now? We just bodoh lah! HAHAHAHA
Shalom.
Patricia,
No worries about the mis-spelling.
Shalom
June 25, 2008 at 9:36 am
The confusion caused by the alarmist newspaper reports could have arisen from a conflation of circular and pamphlet. The circular (per se) faxed to us contains NOTHING in it mentioning that the directive “was issued to prevent incidents like rape and illicit sex as well as to safeguard the morals and dignity of Muslim women” as stated by MSM.
WAIT A MINUTE!THESE MSM PEOPLE ARE TELLING LIES AGAIN?
PAS SHOULD DEMAND THEY RETRACT THAT WAS NOT IN THE DIRECTIVE.
June 25, 2008 at 10:27 am
HARIS & HELEN: SPLITTING THE PERSONALITIES
__________________________________________
Dear Abdul Rahman,
To answer your query: Haris blogged ‘Selamat datang ke Darul Al-Taliban’ at about 3pm yesterday.
His original post begins, “Ignorance of the law has never been a defence” and accompanied with the arch, lipstick and red stilettos posters, plus linking to The Star article.
Haris put up my contribution as an Update at 5.46pm. My writing begins, “As far as I can make out, the Kota Bharu municipal council …” and ends “Our reaction must not rise to the MSM sensationalism bait.”
In the post, I also noted that as it was after office hours, I was unable to double-check whether the council related the dress code to “prevent[ing] incidents like rape and illicit sex …”
This morning I called MPKB again and was informed that there was the dress-rape correlation indeed published. Such ‘ineluctable’ reasoning does cast a different complexion to the affair and vindicates Haris’ alarm. The crux of the matter, in fact, can also revert to Haris’ and your differing views on women’s dressing, i.e. the postings you both did on the white school blouse.
On my part, what I abhor is MSM’s smear campaign against Kelantan, which is nothing new, and the chief reason I updated on Haris’ ‘Taliban’ posting. A typical example of MSM overkill on PAS is WCW’s editorial on March 5, http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/3/5/focus/20533850&sec=focus
I also abhor op-eds like VK Chin’s who wrote: “While DAP-PKR cooperation is acceptable, the problem is working with PAS, which non-Malays in general do not trust due to its uncompromising Islamist stance. In fact, they do not want to have anything to do with this Islamist party as far as possible due to its emphasis on religion in all its decisions and actions.”
My rejoinder to The Star then was “Personally speaking, I repose more trust in PAS than I do MCA which controls the paper Chin writes for.”
The rest of my views – “The Islamist party has shown itself to be principled and its top leaders generally free from the taint of corruption and profligacy. Its supporters are god-fearing, decent folk” and more – can be read in this post: ‘Kerismuddin has “apologised” for air-stabbing, MSM next for spinning’ (April 27, 2008)
I hope that in the spirit of furthering dialogue, both sides will grant more goodwill and understanding to the other. Let’s work towards dismissing the stereotypes and prejudices that the different races and religions hold of each other, and most of all, be wary of MSM which deliberately and unconscionably muddy the waters.
June 25, 2008 at 10:30 am
“If my daughters or sisters are working and this dress code is passed, i shall be very happy.”
Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib, I feel sorry for your daughters and sisters.
And, to Zahariah who said:
“So if they believe that lipstick and high heels are out and a part of their belief is that they have the right or religious duty to enforce it,practise what you preach and respect their right to freedom of religion,even if you disagree with their beliefs.”
Yes, if they only did this in private and view women who wear lipsticks and heels as sinners, then it’s their opinion (right or wrong) and they are entitled to that.
But, if they are imposing a rule on how women (or men) should dress just because they think it’s the right way, then they are just imposing their own opinion on others. That, is unacceptable to me because they are not respecting other people’s freedom.
This is not about respecting or accepting how some people perceive their religion. It’s about whether or not people understand that faith is a personal thing that should not be shoved down everyone else’s throat.
Faith is to believe in God. If you take your faith seriously, great! But that doesn’t give you any right to dictate other people’s belief system. And it certainly does not give you any right to impose upon women (or men) what they can or cannot wear!
June 25, 2008 at 10:35 am
Sheesh! I’ve fallen the latest victim to the smiley emoticon ambush — it happens when one types ‘8′ followed by round bracket. It struck Mat Rempit and others who quoted Quranic verses that have the numeral 8.
But on the other hand, it’s perhaps serendipitious … “grant more goodwill and understanding” smile
June 25, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Dear Patricia,it does not take only rich ladies to own a pair of high heels.I got mine cheap at year end sales and none of them exceed RM30 a pair!Unless you are talking about those branded shoes made by Jimmy Choo,then only rich ladies can afford them and I really can’t.We don’t wear heels every day,only to functions to compliment our more formal dress.Other days,I settle for comfortable sandals.I don’t think it is bodoh to look good and be presentable.I think it called good grooming.Sorry Haris for taking up your valuable space here.Thanks and cheers!
June 25, 2008 at 12:36 pm
aiyaah guys,..pls excuse people like Abdul Rahman, MPKB authority, PAS and all ardent supporters of the lipstic ban. For some weird reasons, they seem to have forgotten or maybe confused about their adopted culture.
The fact is this, lipstic had been widely used in the west asia region since ancient time.it was part of the culture. it can be traced back as far as 5000 yrs ago in the ancient city of Ur near Babylon. and also widely used by the ancient egyptians. as a matter of fact, they already had fish scale put into lipstic formula in the time of the cleoptra era.
In the context of Islam civilization, the pioneer of cosmetologist was Abu Qasim Zahrawi, a physician in the 9th century islamic golden age. all these modern day ideas like pressed mould deodarant, liptics and beauty gadgets originated from this man.
it is safe to say that the sickness of lipstick banning was never an Arab/Muslim culture nor historically Islamic thing.
so where did all these sickness of lipstic banning started? from where all these ideas come from??
well,during the period of renaissance,Abu Qasim (known as Abulcasis in the west) ideas such as cosmetology also made its way into the west. By 1600 lipstic application gained its popularity in europe.
Then came this boneheaded pastor Thomas Hall in 1653 England , who led a movement proclaiming that painting of faces was the ‘Devil’s Work’.ANd in 1700’s it was said that women who wore lipstic and seduced men into marriage could be tried as witches.
now there’s no need to go into details the connection between holy scriptures, narrations, traditions and all that. because people like Abdul Rahman already had their mind set. and they would choose not to see the relation no matter what.
but one thing for sure is this, Abdul Rahman, PAS MpKB and pastor Thomas Hall share one sickness in common -lipstick phobia. They are eager to ban and prohibit the use lipstic . It seems that they are similar but not the same. hmmm…..
naruto
June 25, 2008 at 1:52 pm
These clowns may think that they are defenders of Islam; but in actual fact , these are the idiots giving Islam a bad name.
June 25, 2008 at 3:13 pm
dear MBKB,
Thanks but no thanks for your ‘advice’.My bussiness is doing just fine with our current dress code.
Wanna my advice?Pls keep your guidelines to your own emplyees.
Many thanks.
Hamba yang menurut perintah,
Mak enon
June 25, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Utk yang muslim..
Carefull when speaking… always remember Allah s.w.t. Takut2 syirik senyap2. Apa la sangat dengan kita hamba yang kecil dan naif ni. Dah terang2 dalam Quran cakap kena tutup aurat betul2 (wajib) dan isteri2 mesti menjauhkan diri dari segala kemaslahatan dan fitnah selain daripada suaminya. So, siapa kat sini boleh bagi nas-nas hadis cakap tutup aurat ni tak WAJIB. Dalam Quran dah cakap WAJIB. Siapa la kita nak membantah arahan Allah. Nauzubillah. Kalau rasa tak berapa suka, jangan nak mengutuk. Hormati Kerajaan Kelantan yang dah dipilih lebih dari 15 tahun dah. Kerajaan Kelantan tak pernah nak menghalang sesiapa keluar masuk ke negeri Kelantan. Lagipun apa yang MPKB-BRI cakap tu nasihat je wahai adik dan kakak… Manusia sentiasa pelupa.. so nasihat menasihati antara manusia adalah digalakkan.
For non-muslim, this is my advise.
Better watch out your mouth if you are not sure about this. Learn more than you will know. How much do you know about aurat, Islam, dunia akhirat….in Islam perspective? Of course you have to learn more about Islam. Dont look at the one side and throw out all the rubbish from your mouth to Kelantan goverment. Do you know why Kelantenese choose this goverment, they know what they want. And for your info, the PAS state never urged and forced non-muslim to follow this rule.. and of course this is an good advise, not the exact RULE that non-muslim should follow. Its better to advise people to ‘tutup’ body from others rather than to show up almost part of women body (half-naked) as can we see at bukit bintang, kl……..Yes, this is multiracial country. PAS people never disturb you ‘modern’ life. PAS council never ask and say something bad about you all and i’m feel weird that you can say something ‘bad’ to this state. So, now, who is correct and wrong. Lu pikir la sendiri.
June 25, 2008 at 5:31 pm
i don’t think hundreds of thousands of kelantanese were stupid enough to vote for PAS over and over again since the past 18 years. it must be something special about the PAS government in kelantan given that they can maintain their popularity despite relentless pressure from the federal government. perhaps you guys should go and visit kelantan before coming to any conclusion about the PAS-led govt. i am afraid other people may think that you are as stupid as haris anak lelaki ibrahim if you start bashing PAS-led govt when the kelantanese themselves are very happy with their govt
June 25, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Kambing kalau dipakai kasut tumit tinggi dan digincukan pun, tetap bunyinya sama bila mengembek..
Tetapi kambing bila enggan mengaku dirinya kambing sekadar selepas memakai kasut tinggi dan bergincu, tak dapeklah den nak tolon…
June 25, 2008 at 7:33 pm
@zeckh:
Apa kena-mengena gincu dan tumit tinggi dengan aurat?
June 25, 2008 at 7:37 pm
naruto Says:
June 25, 2008 at 12:36 pm
aiyaah guys,..pls excuse people like Abdul Rahman, MPKB authority, PAS and all ardent supporters of the lipstic ban. For some weird reasons, they seem to have forgotten or maybe confused about their adopted culture.
The fact is this, lipstic had been widely used in the west asia region since ancient time.it was part of the culture. it can be traced back as far as 5000 yrs ago in the ancient city of Ur near Babylon. and also widely used by the ancient egyptians. as a matter of fact, they already had fish scale put into lipstic formula in the time of the cleoptra era.
MY REPLY: ACtually NAruto, that’s a very weird claim because I don’t recall any lipstick in the MAlay culture.
All i know is that lipsticks are introduced into our culture by the West
June 25, 2008 at 7:40 pm
temenggong Says:
June 25, 2008 at 7:20 am
Its a wonder really how so many muslims insult their religion and display their intelligence with a streak of pride!
Since Pas has linked cosmetics, shoes and attire with sex and rape, perhaps they should do a paper on psychology backed with clinical studies and present the thesis to the world for peer review! I’m sure IIU will present them with a doctorate! Quack psychiatrists!
MY REPLY: Temenggong, I think one will need a study to DENY link between exposure of body to rape, degradation of morality and many more.
All I know is that advertisements only use exposed and beautiful women. I bet they don’t do that just for the fun of it.
June 25, 2008 at 8:09 pm
As for the title “Selamat Datang to Darul Taleban”, I responded by posting a pictorial report entitled “Life in Taleban Country “http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/06/life-in-taleban-country-pt-3.html”.
Now the number of visitors to all three parts are in the thousands. But, the comments made by the visitors are a. very few b. very encouraging.
The reports does nothing except dispel fears that “Talibanism” promotes backwardness and resists progress.
It seems that those who are against the Taleban, wfter visiting the url, are loss for words.
For instance, in Taleban country we have all the multinational chains that we have here in Malaysia KFC, McDonalds, TGI Fridays etc.
And Taleban country is very developed, in fact I dare say Taleban country is as developed as Malaysia.
With more oil money coming into Taleban Country, the development will pick up faster than Malaysia.
Ok I gotta go. I have a dinner appointment at the local Tony Roma
June 25, 2008 at 10:14 pm
To Scout who said:
Yes, if they only did this in private and view women who wear lipsticks and heels as sinners, then it’s their opinion (right or wrong) and they are entitled to that.
But, if they are imposing a rule on how women (or men) should dress just because they think it’s the right way, then they are just imposing their own opinion on others. That, is unacceptable to me because they are not respecting other people’s freedom.
Now here is what I said:
“So if they believe that lipstick and high heels are out and a part of their belief is that they have the right or religious duty to enforce it,practise what you preach and respect their right to freedom of religion,even if you disagree with their beliefs.”
Read again:
“___and a part of their belief is that they have the right or religious duty to enforce it___”
So you will be interfering with that part of their belief by determining what they can believe and cant, whether you agree or not with their belief..
zahariah,
It is part of the Christian faith ( as I understand it. If in error, no doubt someone will correct me ) that adherents of the faith are to ‘take this Gospel to all nations’, ie, to spread the word.
However, in this country, Article 11(4) allows for the creation of laws to ‘control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam’. And such laws have indeed been passed.
So today we tell our Christian friends that, yes, we are aware of the obligation their faith places upon them but in this country, the constitution, and not their faith, is supreme law. Laws properly passed under the constitution do not allow them to evangelise to persons professing the religion of Islam.
In the same way, you and other Muslims must understand that Article 11(1) guarantees to ‘every person’ ‘the right to profess and practise his religion’.
I am sure you will agree that ‘every person’ must mean just that.
Every person.
‘right to profess and practise’ means choice.
Choice as to whether to profess any religion and, if one does profess a religion, a further choice whether to practise the tenets of the religion.
Choice to profess and choice to practise.
Turning now to your “___and a part of their belief is that they have the right or religious duty to enforce it___”, even if this is a religious duty in Islam ( which I doubt ), you, too, and scores many more Muslims, willl have to accept that the constitution, and not Islam, is the supreme law of the land.
As that supreme law confers a right of choice whether to practise the tenets of one’s faith, including Islam, you and all other Muslims will have to accept that you cannot enforce the practise of the tenets of Islam on those who choose not to practise it.
June 25, 2008 at 10:22 pm
alamak Rahman,…lemah la kau ni.
You are either truly confuse or just buat-buat confuse. i feel you are both. Am not talking about malay culture but your adopted culture – Arabic culture. because most tend to confuse between arabic and islamic.
But the main point above is this; historically, lipstic banning culture/idea has no roots in nether Arabic nor Islamic civilization. In fact wearing lipstic was part of it. Science of cosmetic was pioneered by muslim in the islamic golden age. On the contrary, the idea/practice of lipstic banning/phobia originated from the west in 1600’s.
So now, which ideals are you,pas and mpkb follow and trying to promote – Arabic? Islamic? or Thomas Hall??? Or are you guys actually follower of pastor Thomas Hall??? If that truly the case – be honest and just say it out loud lah. surely, we’ve got no problem with that.
naruto
June 25, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Haris, I think majority of the Kelantanese do not support this kind of idea. It is worst than the Taliban. What are these people trying to prove?
I am really puzzled. Looks like this Bolehland is full of religious fanatics, corrupted elites/politicians and top Guomen brass, incompetent leaders who never use their brains etc. The future of Bolehland:getting dimer and dimer.
June 25, 2008 at 11:37 pm
zahariah,
You need to read your own statement again:
“___and a part of their belief is that they have the right or religious duty to enforce it___”
Keyword: “enforce”. The word “enforce” comes from the word “force” and some of its definitions are:
- to IMPOSE (a course of action) upon a person
- to COMPEL obedience to
I have no problems if it’s their personal belief that lipsticks and high heels are bad and I’ve said that they are entitled to their own opinion.
What I am against is them ENFORCING this (if they really did). As much as I won’t enforce my own belief on others, I expect others to not enforce their belief system on me. It is and should be our own individual choice. That, is what personal freedom is all about.
June 26, 2008 at 5:26 am
naruto says:
“But the main point above is this; historically, lipstic banning culture/idea has no roots in nether Arabic nor Islamic civilization. In fact wearing lipstic was part of it. Science of cosmetic was pioneered by muslim in the islamic golden age. On the contrary, the idea/practice of lipstic banning/phobia originated from the west in 1600’s.”
MY REPLY: Really, and asking you for evidence will not to much imposition, will it??
June 26, 2008 at 8:22 am
Haris says:
“But the main point above is this; historically, lipstic banning culture/idea has no roots in nether Arabic nor Islamic civilization. In fact wearing lipstic was part of it. Science of cosmetic was pioneered by muslim in the islamic golden age. On the contrary, the idea/practice of lipstic banning/phobia originated from the west in 1600’s.”
MY REPLY: Err. Haris, Technically, MPKB is enforcing a dress-code, not a religous edict.
So, what’s so unconstitutional about that.
RC,
You are crediting someone else’s viewpoint to me
June 26, 2008 at 8:23 am
Scout,
Read again.
If that is part of their belief, whether rightly or wrongly,you interfere with that belief when you state they should not believe that they have the right to enforce and that they should only believe the way you believe —that one should not enforce one’s beliefs on others.
You are therefore seeking to impose or enforce your beliefs on them.
June 26, 2008 at 8:26 am
Scout says:
“Yes, if they only did this in private and view women who wear lipsticks and heels as sinners, then it’s their opinion (right or wrong) and they are entitled to that.
But, if they are imposing a rule on how women (or men) should dress just because they think it’s the right way, then they are just imposing their own opinion on others. That, is unacceptable to me because they are not respecting other people’s freedom.”
MY REPLY: So in other words you’re saying Islamic dress code should not be enforced. But why? Why must Islam be kept within private domain?
Is it because you believe that ISlam should be limited to within what secularism allows and disallows?
Or are u suggesting we Muslims should change our religion to fit the secular worldview?
I feel sorry for your women family members too. They’re being exploited yet, you are not doing anything.
One proof, please refer to my comments on this article by Haris:
“Ban on Lipsticks Good For Health-They can Kill You”
http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/06/ban-on-lipstick-is-good-for-health-they.html
June 26, 2008 at 8:28 am
Haris,
If you say that enforcement of Islamic law is against the Constitutiion, then the entire Shariah Court system is ultra vires to the Constitution.
Yet, time and time again, we have rulings confirming the legality and the soveriegnity of the Shariah Courts.
Therefore, what MPKB is doing CANNOT be contradictory to the country’s constitution.
RC,
No, the entire Shariah Court system is not ultra vires the Constitution, but certain laws criminalising, for example, the failure to attend 3 consecutive Friday prayers or eating or drinking publicly during the day in Ramadhan, are.
Why?
Because the constitution gives to every person ( Muslims too ) the right of choice whether they want to practise the tenets of their faith.
And as yet there have been no confirmation by the Federal Court as to the constitutionality of these laws. We are presently awaiting the outcome of two challenges.
June 26, 2008 at 8:31 am
barry Says:
June 25, 2008 at 9:08 am
It’s funny how Muslims are automatically considered munafik when they criticise or question the religious practices the religious ‘leaders’ insist on imposing. It appears that PAS is beyond reproach, and can do no wrong, no matter how silly and ridiculous these ‘laws’ appear from a non-Muslim looking from the outside.
MY REPLY: Well, they’re considered Munafik not because they question Islam but because they reject Islam.
That’s the definition of Munafiq.
Anyways, all these emotional outburst is not without it’s basis.
June 26, 2008 at 8:34 am
Scout says:
“Keyword: “enforce”. The word “enforce” comes from the word “force” and some of its definitions are:
- to IMPOSE (a course of action) upon a person
- to COMPEL obedience to
I have no problems if it’s their personal belief that lipsticks and high heels are bad and I’ve said that they are entitled to their own opinion.
What I am against is them ENFORCING this (if they really did).”
MY REPLY: So, even if they really enforced (which they didn’t), what is wrong with that?
Why do you say it’s wrong? In the first place, why must Islam be kept within personal domain?
Since Islam has always been since the time of the Prophet a comprehensive way of life, which covers both private and public domains.
Are u asking Muslims to change their religion? I know Haris is doing what you want because he changed the meaning of the Quran.
So i guess Haris Ibrahim is a model Muslim for you because he’s willing to change the Quran to fit into your self-centered secular mould?
June 26, 2008 at 8:40 am
Adam,
I couldn’t agree more. Most of these jokers in this forum, including Haris probably has never set foot in Kelantan. Even if they had, they’ve never lived in Kelantan.
Despite being under seige from BArisan Nasional fro 18 straight years, with the media constantly smearing them with lies, and the English media constantly using Kelantan to scare non Muslims away from PAS, the Non Malay Kelantanese are the strongest supporter of PAS.
And Kelatanese as a whole gives their full mandate to PAS.
People say, no it’s not PAS but it’s Tuan Guru Nik Aziz. I reply, it means that Kelantanese openly support Islam to be implemented in the public domain and openly rejects secularism.
Why? Nik Aziz’s main attraction is nothing but ISlam and ever since he came back from Al Azhar in 1963 he has been preaching nothing but the full implementation of Islam in both public and private domain.
The MPKB initiative like what Haris is trying to smear is another proof that Kelantanese as a whole rejects the brand of Islam Haris brings.
And for sure, they reject secularism.
June 26, 2008 at 8:41 am
Enforcement of religous laws is part of the teachings of Islam.
it was done by our Prophet SAW and it was done by the Sahaba (that means Ijma’).
So, yes it is pretty much part of Islam. To reject it is to reject a very important part of Islam no matter how much Haris Ibrahim hates it.
June 26, 2008 at 8:42 am
Haris,
Correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t the Shariah Law preceeds this country’s constitution?
RC,
No, sir, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land
June 26, 2008 at 8:43 am
Oh and as far as I know, religous injunctions in Kelantan are only enforced among Muslims.
June 26, 2008 at 9:00 am
HAris says:
“RC,
No, sir, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land”
MY REPLY: THat’s not what Pawanchik Merican told me, or is it I misunderstood?
June 26, 2008 at 9:03 am
Wan Zafran wrote an article on the Lina Joy’s Federal Court decision. I quote:
“The Federal Court’s decision was handed down on the 30th of May 2007, with the majority judgment ruling in favour of dismissing Lina Joy’s appeal. (One judge dissented.) In essence, the majority judgement came to these conclusions:
* 1) For a Muslim, his religious rights and duties prior to his conversion remains unchanged until he gets a declaration from the Syariah Court saying that he is no longer a Muslim.
* 2) Article 11 (1) does not give rise to absolute freedom of religion.
* 3) The right to profess and practice a religion is subject to the principles and practice of that religion. ”
Therefore, since enforcement of Islamic law is part of the principle of Islam, i guess the MPKB ruling is “constitutional”?
June 26, 2008 at 9:08 am
Haris,
No wonder u were so worked up when it comes to Lina Joy’s case.
Had u won, Wan Zafran writes, among the effects are:
“5) The impossibility of religious enforcement – Consider perhaps, a man eating eating in public in the fasting month of Ramadhan who, when arrested by religious officers, professes to having left the Islamic faith. The religious officers would be unable to perform their duties if so.”
You were very much commited to ensure that Islam will not be implemented at all in this country and it remains within private domain.
THat’s your real ideology, secularism. And you’re willing to use the courts to enforce your ideology, much like the liberals in the US too, so the tactic is not new.
It doesn’t surprise me though because you’re even willing to change the Quran. So, killing Islamic enforcement is like a walk in the park.
June 26, 2008 at 9:37 am
zahariah,
I never asked anyone to believe only the way as I do. If you think that by asking people not to enforce their belief on me is akin to me enforcing my belief system on them, then, to me, that’s just skewed reasoning. I guess people just have a different way of looking at things and I don’t expect you to understand my liberal stance. To each his/her own. But, even if I were to rule the country, I would definitely NOT pass a law or circulate a pamphlet to tell you how to think the way I do. That’s the difference.
———————————————-
abdul rahman abdul talib,
“So in other words you’re saying Islamic dress code should not be enforced. But why? Why must Islam be kept within private domain?”
Because… religion is a personal thing. Faith is personal. Faith is a firm belief without having to have proof. Doesn’t matter if it’s Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism or whatever. I don’t subscribe to any particular religion. I am not against Islam and I am not stopping you from practicing Islam.
And, dear abdul rahman, I am a woman myself and proud to be one. I don’t feel that I am being exploited for wearing lipstick and heels. On the contrary, I feel insulted by the misogynistic and chauvinistic views that are being espoused by some people.
June 26, 2008 at 9:48 am
wooh …wait, hold on Rahman. i think you are confused and got it mix-up. let’s be clear on this; naruto and Harris are two different individuals – physically, mentally and they don’t share the same soul.
physically, naruto is better looking than Harris because he is a decade younger. he..he..he..chill out SAM
. However, Harris’s command of English is way better than naruto.(that’s not a big deal anyway…he..he)
regarding your article on lipstic; i’ve this to say. Had the directive on lipstic done on the ground of health concern,they should had made clear about it. As this would not create such humiliating embarrassment to the religion of Islam particularly and muslim as a whole. Comprende!
naruto
June 26, 2008 at 11:08 am
Oh Article 4 says:
“Article 4
This Constitution is the supreme law of the Federation and any law passed after Merdeka Day which is inconsistent with this Constitution shall, to the extent of the inconsistency, be void. ”
The Islamic Laws of various states, such as Selangor is on record to have been passed BEFORE the constitution, so they don’t have to adhere to the requirement in Article 4, as far as I know.
But I am not an expert, but that was what I was informed of.
RC,
Respectfully, your lack of expertise, and that of those by whom you are informed, is showing through
June 26, 2008 at 11:23 am
Wow, very interesting indeed. In Kelantan, if the men gets a hard on, it is the women’s fault. Quran says you are accountable for your own deeds. Ah maybe now I know why they call PAS Party Ajaran Syaitan. Rahman, why do you hate women so much, or did you forget that your mum is a woman?
Shalom
June 26, 2008 at 11:28 am
Admiral Tojo Says:
June 26, 2008 at 11:23 am
Wow, very interesting indeed. In Kelantan, if the men gets a hard on, it is the women’s fault. Quran says you are accountable for your own deeds
MY REPLY: You mean to say your Aidid Safar Quran, not the real Quran, right Altojo?
Have Aidid Safr finished translating his Quran? Last I heard, he only got up to Juz 4.
Oh, and how do you explain verses on flogging and chopping of hands for theives and dacoits?
June 26, 2008 at 11:31 am
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !
Please don’t get mad with my words.
It’s absolutelyy wrong !
It’s absolutelyy wrong !
It’s absolutelyy wrong !
As mentioned below….
” abdul rahman abdul talib Says:
June 24, 2008 at 6:30 pm
I don’t get it. It’s a dress code. What’s wrong with a dress code?
Or is it because it’s a religous based dress code? ”
Well, my friend , in order to wake you up ! We do not have any fixed dress code for normal living lifestyle.
So , it’s absolutelyy wrong to force somebody to wear something that reflected a particular faith or race.
Remember again, not to get hurt with my words.
I do not mean to hurt you, but mean logic.
Think ! Think ! Think !
Have a nice day…….
RAKYAT FAVOUR JUSTICE and LOGIC
June 26, 2008 at 11:33 am
Can we interpret Article 11 so liberally if Article 3 says:
Article 3
1. Islam is the religion of the Federation; but other religions may be practised in peace and harmony in any part of the Federation.
Islam is the religion of the Federation, not justn official religion.
June 26, 2008 at 11:35 am
Naruto,
I still have not seen evidence about your Abu Cassim or whatever. Neither have i seen evidence of your 500 years old lipsticks.
Neither have i seen the proof of existance of lipsticks among Muslim women from the last 600 years as u claim.
So, if i were u i’d worry about coming up with proof to support my claim and stop asking more questions.
June 26, 2008 at 11:37 am
And Naruto,
learn to read properly, will ya. There was no directive not to wear lipsticks. It’s all made up by Haris Ibrahim and the MSM (despite Haris vowing his enmity towards MSM, now he’s echoing their message).
It’s a proposal and advice to the people of KB.
June 26, 2008 at 12:53 pm
WELCOME TO DARUL TALIBAN
Abdul Rahman’s,
For instance, in Taleban country we have all the multinational chains that we have here in Malaysia KFC, McDonalds, TGI Fridays etc.
And Taleban country is very developed, in fact I dare say Taleban country is as developed as Malaysia.
MY ANSWER:
Developed = KFC, McDonalds, TGI Fridays
Does not take a genius to figure a Taliban mindset.
All I know is that advertisements only use exposed and beautiful women.
‘..advertisements only use exposed and beautiful women…’
MY ANSWER:
That is all Taliban knows. Another fine example of Taliban mindset.
Forget there are advertisements that don’t show people at all.
Well, they’re considered Munafik not because they question Islam but because they reject Islam.
MY ANSWER:
Read again barry’s statement ‘..when they criticise or question the religious practices the religious ‘leaders’ insist on imposing…’
Criticize and question religious leaders = reject Islam = munafik
Righteous = complete obedience to Mullahs
Welcome to Darul Taliban.
Enforcement of religous laws is part of the teachings of Islam.
it was done by our Prophet SAW
MY ANSWER:
The Prophet also had more than 4 wives.
How many wives do you have?
zahariah’s,
So if they believe that lipstick and high heels are out and a part of their belief…
MY ANSWER:
First, they failed to show how is lipstick and high heels are unIslamic. Any verse of Quran says so?
Second, they enforce it to Muslims after failing to show how it is unIslamic.
Third, they expect Muslims to accept this without questioning. Questioning means munafik.
Fourth, they told the non Muslims to shut up.
Welcome to Darul Taliban!
June 26, 2008 at 12:54 pm
scout says:
“Because… religion is a personal thing. Faith is personal. Faith is a firm belief without having to have proof. Doesn’t matter if it’s Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism or whatever. I don’t subscribe to any particular religion. I am not against Islam and I am not stopping you from practicing Islam.”
MY REPLY: Newsflash scout, Islam is NOT a mere religion. It is a COMPLETE WAY OF LIFE.
Since it’s introduction by the Prophet Mohd pbuh, it was never intended to be a religion as in the form understood by secularist today.
And Islam has never have any valid reason to reinvent itself nor should it ever.
My question to you: are u asking us to alter Islam???
RC,
You said : Since it’s introduction by the Prophet Mohd pbuh…
i’m a bit confused now. Was not Nabi Adam, Noh, Musa, Ibrahim and Isa all Muslim?
Was not Nabi Muhammad merely advocating the faith of men who went before him?
June 26, 2008 at 12:56 pm
scout says:
“And, dear abdul rahman, I am a woman myself and proud to be one. I don’t feel that I am being exploited for wearing lipstick and heels. On the contrary, I feel insulted by the misogynistic and chauvinistic views that are being espoused by some people.”
MY REPLY: Maybe you’ve been brainwashed and u don’t know about it??
Try reading my latest posting on lipsticks then you’ll know why you’re exploited.
http://www.malaysiawaves.com/2008/06/ban-on-lipstick-is-good-for-health-they.html
June 26, 2008 at 1:22 pm
abdul rahman’s
Can we interpret Article 11 so liberally if Article 3 says:
MY ANSWER:
Not only we can, we should. This is according to Tun Salleh Abas, Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun Hussein Onn and others.
June 26, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Abdul Rahman, you are the one being brainwashed into thinking that GOD is Arab, has a house made of Stones in Mecca etc etc etc. Scout, I call it Pagan, this Arab Religion. Rahman likes to kill, hates women, wants to cut people’s hands off when he gets the chance. His GOD is the GOD with human attributes of vengeance, wrath, anger and hate. The GOD of Quran is NONE of that.
Salaam
June 26, 2008 at 2:12 pm
sdr zeckh,
indahnye bahasa ko, terkesima ku dibuatnya.
lepas nie konfom berebut-rebut non-muslm nak masuk
kelab peminat PAS ko
semoga berjaya.
June 26, 2008 at 2:26 pm
abdul rahman, abdul rahman… yes, Islam is a “COMPLETE WAY OF LIFE” indeed… to you and some, but NOT to me and others. And I thought I already made myself clear: I’m not against Islam and what you practice. So, no, I am not asking/suggesting that you alter Islam. Why should I? So that it conforms to my world view? Nah…
Yeah, maybe I’ve been brainwashed with ideas of personal freedom and liberty, so your reasoning is beyond my comprehension. Sorry.
June 26, 2008 at 2:50 pm
alhadee,
I never said the issue of lipstick or highheels can be found in the Qur’an.It was purely a matter of affording a person his right of belief,whether right or wrong.
Just like much of your beliefs have no basis in Islam and yet you insist on your right to so believe.
June 26, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Scout, your reasoning likewise seems skewed.
June 26, 2008 at 2:54 pm
This land belongs to God. He had no part in the drafting of the Federal Constitution.In God’s eyes, it is His law that is the supreme law of His land, whatever else lawyers and politicians may say.
zahariah,
Can i take it then that you are quite amenable to disregarding Articles 3(1) ( Islam the religion of the federation ), 153 ( special position of the Malays and the indigenous ), 11(4) ( enabling the promulgation of ‘no propagation of other doctrines to Muslims’ laws )?
Or do you only wish to selectively disregard the constitution?
June 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Quite amenable to discarding the whole constitution.
June 26, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Ahem, I believe the gals will like this one:
Rape Deterrence Motivational Poster
June 26, 2008 at 5:28 pm
alhadee Says:
Not only we can, we should. This is according to Tun Salleh Abas, Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun Hussein Onn and others.
MY REPLY: Are u sure Alhadee? Because i don’t think what you’re saying above is right?
June 26, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Admiraltojo,
If you really hate Arabs, then reject the Quran because in 10 places in the QUran, it is stated clearly that the Quran is in Arabic.
Oh, i forgot, you’re from the school that changes the Quran anyway they wish to serve their own cheap agenda.
What’s the name of the school again? Aidid Safr’s school? THat’s right.
Tell me has Aidid Safr finished his (mis)translation of the Quran or is he still stuck at Juz 4?
June 26, 2008 at 8:42 pm
scout says:
” scout Says:
June 26, 2008 at 2:26 pm
abdul rahman, abdul rahman… yes, Islam is a “COMPLETE WAY OF LIFE” indeed… to you and some, but NOT to me and others. And I thought I already made myself clear: I’m not against Islam and what you practice. So, no, I am not asking/suggesting that you alter Islam. Why should I? So that it conforms to my world view? Nah…
Yeah, maybe I’ve been brainwashed with ideas of personal freedom and liberty, so your reasoning is beyond my comprehension. Sorry.”
MY REPLY: Sorry Scout, maybe I wasn’t clear the first time.
Islam is a COMPREHENSIVE way of life for all MUSLIMS, no exceptions.
June 27, 2008 at 2:30 am
Abdul Rahman,
MY REPLY: Are u sure Alhadee? Because i don’t think what you’re saying above is right?
============
MY ANSWER:
Of course I am very sure Mr Rahman. Why shouldn’t I?
1988 Supreme Court 5-panel Judgement
In Che Omar bin Che Soh vs Public Prosecutor (1988), the five-man Federal Court panel, headed by the then Lord President Tun Salleh Abas & consisting Wan Sulaiman, George Seah, Haship Yeop & Syed Agil Barakbah ruled that the Constitution and the legal system are “secular” and ruled that the meaning of the expression “Islam” or “Islamic religion” in Article 3 “means only such acts as relate to rituals and ceremonies”. It was never meant to extend the application of Syariah law to the sphere of public law. “If it had been otherwise, there would have been another provision in the Constitution which would have the effect that any law contrary to the junction of Islam would be void.”“Needless to say that this submission, in our view, will be contrary to the constitutional and legal history of the Federation and also to the Civil Law Act which provides for the reception of English common law in this country”. The Court concluded with these words: “we have to set aside our personal feelings because the law in this country is still what it is today, secular law, where morality not accepted by the law is not enjoying the status of the law.”
Tunku Abdul Rahman declared in the Parliament as recorded in the Hansard on 1 May 58
“I would like to make it clear that this country is not an Islamic State as it is generally understood, we merely provided that Islam shall be the official religion of the State.”
Tun Hussein Onn as reported in The Star in Feb 93, “Hussein says No to Islamic State too”,
Former Prime Minister Tun Hussein Onn has supported Tunku Abdul Rahman’s view that Malaysia should not be turned into an Islamic state. He said that “the nation can still be functional as a secular state with Islam as the official religion.”
* Extract of the above can be find at http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2007/09/13/
** Reproduce without permission of Mr Haris Ibrahim.
Unfortunately for you Mr Rahman, Malaysia is intended to be a secular state right from the beginning.
June 27, 2008 at 2:38 am
zahariah’s
I never said the issue of lipstick or highheels can be found in the Qur’an.It was purely a matter of affording a person his right of belief,whether right or wrong
Good. There is no basis in the Quran for that. With that I declare the ruling of MPKB as a bidaah.
But as I believe every man is entitle to his own faith, I declare that I shall not insist my ruling be enforced in anyway on anybody.
Everybody is entitled to their own belief.
Just like much of your beliefs have no basis in Islam
And neither have yours. The sound of heels are haram anyone?
This land belongs to God.
Atleast we can agree on something. Yes, this land belongs to God. It does not belong to any Religious zealots, bigots and terrorists.
This land is entrusted to all of us, Muslims and non Muslims alike.
June 27, 2008 at 3:01 am
Error Notification
* Extract of the above can be find at http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2007/09/13/
The more appropriate link should be:
http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/2007/09/13/yb-chew-mei-funs-reply-to-the-peoples-parliament/
June 27, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Dear Haris & Helen,
Many thanks for clarifying the situation.
When I just read the Star and Bernama article, I had the distinct impression that the ruling applied to all Muslim women in the Kelantan State, and was naturally shocked!
However, your article and the photos of the circular and pamphlet was informative and objective (although a bit small and hard to read).
I tend to agree that it is a “dress code” for Muslim women traders within the MPKB ambit, and is thus much more limited. After reading your article, I am not as shocked.
Anyway, I have taken the liberty to blog on this topic to document my own personal experience as well as some of my fellow chatters:
http://fusioninvestor.blogspot.com/2008/06/kb-council-bans-lipstick-high-heels.html
Thanks. And keep up the great work!
Seng.
June 27, 2008 at 8:16 pm
abdul rahman abdul talib Says:
June 26, 2008 at 8:40 am
Adam,
I couldn’t agree more. Most of these jokers in this forum, including Haris probably has never set foot in Kelantan. Even if they had, they’ve never lived in Kelantan.
Despite being under seige from BArisan Nasional fro 18 straight years, with the media constantly smearing them with lies, and the English media constantly using Kelantan to scare non Muslims away from PAS, the Non Malay Kelantanese are the strongest supporter of PAS.
And Kelatanese as a whole gives their full mandate to PAS.
People say, no it’s not PAS but it’s Tuan Guru Nik Aziz. I reply, it means that Kelantanese openly support Islam to be implemented in the public domain and openly rejects secularism.
Why? Nik Aziz’s main attraction is nothing but ISlam and ever since he came back from Al Azhar in 1963 he has been preaching nothing but the full implementation of Islam in both public and private domain.
The MPKB initiative like what Haris is trying to smear is another proof that Kelantanese as a whole rejects the brand of Islam Haris brings.
And for sure, they reject secularism.
——————————————————–
As I got back from offshore platform, got into a cab and headed towards Rantau Panjang. Lotsa fake football jersey, will make my brother happy.
Conversation in the cab range (in accordance to timeline):
1) Politics – this can be subdivided into many category which are:
1.1) Corruption among UMNO
1.2) Islamic values
2) Islam – at times diverged back to politics
As we approached Rantau Panjang, without fail, conversation now turns:
3) The driver now asks me if I have brought my passport. “Kalau ada passport, boleh gi Siam, boleh ‘massage’” I ask,”Betul ke bang? Takde masalah?” Answer,”Eh takde, biasa. Abang tahu tempat mana.”
So yes,
Reject secularism, instead go get a ‘massage’ in Siam.
Damn it, always keep forgetting to carry my passport along whenever going offshore. Gotta remember next time.