And you thought Islamists & I could never agree!
July 11, 2008
‘ And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors’ – Surah 24 verse 4 of the Holy Qur’an
‘If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way’ – Surah 4 verse 15 of the Holy Qur’an
‘If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful’ – Surah 4 verse 16 of the Holy Qur’an
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“I have been advised by Muslim scholars, ulamas and my legal counsel to bring this case under the laws of Qazaf. As Islamic issues have been raised with regards to this case, I have conferred with religious experts and have found provisions under Syariah law for this,” – DSAI on Wednesday, 9th July, 2008, on his complaint to the Jabatan Agama Islam Wilayah Persekutuan (JAWI) that Saiful had committed Qazaf, an offence under Section 41 of Act 559 Syariah Criminal Offences (Federal Territories) 1997, as reported in the Malaysian Insider.
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In my ‘No more teasing, please’ post, I had asked :
‘Or have I got it wrong and that the ‘four witnesses to penetration’ requirement only applies to a situation where the ‘penetratee’ is of the fairer sex, or when a member of the fairer sex is accused of unchaste conduct?’
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NST online reports today that Syariah Lawyers Association president, Zainul Rijal Abu Bakar, took the view that Anwar’s complaint may contradict 2 elements of Section 41, given that the offence of qazaf here is stated to be in connection with an allegation of zina.
“The code does not state that zina is equivalent to liwat, which is sex between a man and another man…This means that Mohd Saiful would have had to accuse Anwar and someone else, not Anwar and himself, of zina,”, NST online quotes Zainul as saying.
NST online also quotes Universiti Malaya’s Syariah and Law Department head Dr Siti Zubaidah Ismail as saying that “In Malaysian syariah, you only need four witnesses if you accuse someone of zina but not of liwat. Mohd Saiful can bring whatever evidence he has as long as it fulfils the rules of evidence. It is not necessary for him to bring four witnesses…The burden of proof would be on Anwar as he has to prove that Mohd Saiful’s accusations are false. But before any of that occurs, it would be interesting to see whether or not the Syariah Court interprets what constitutes zina and liwat when it comes to qazaf,”.
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Section 41, Syariah Criminal Offences (Federal Territories) 1997 :
Except in cases of li’an, any person who accuses another person of committing zina without procuring four male witnesses or an iqrar of the accused person in accordance with Islarnic Law shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding five thousand ringgit or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or to both.
Section 2 ( interpretation section ) of Syariah Criminal Offences (Federal Territories) 1997 :
“zina” means sexual intercourse between a man and a woman out of wedlock.
“li’an” means an allegation made by a man under oath in accordance with Islamic Law that his wife has committed zina;
“liwat” means sexual relations between male persons;
“qazaf” means making false allegation on any person;
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I think Zainul and Dr Siti Zubaidah are right.





July 11, 2008 at 3:02 pm
The only way Saiful can prove his case is if he has evidence of AI committing liwat on him – some form of seminal stains which can be DNA tested ala CSI, or videos of hidden camera ala CSL. So, in this respect, AI is smart enough to go through the Syariah Court to prove his innocence (I am convinced he is innocent of this liwat accusation). This, no doubt, will further polarise the Muslim community.
July 11, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Now it is all getting so confused! One thing I can tell from all of this is that Musa Hassan and his boys are excluded from this. Gani Patail also might find himself excluded so that betweent hem they cannot turn any new tricks. As it is there is more than enough confusion that has to be cleared to make Saiful a very old man before he sees all of these things through. If he has got to wait till then before he gets married, may I suggest that hsi woman dump him and stop reading Barbara Cartland.
July 11, 2008 at 3:35 pm
I think so too, judging by the definition in the ordinance. But what bothers me is this :
“The burden of proof would be on Anwar as he has to prove that Mohd Saiful’s accusations are false.” : Dr Siti Zubaidah Ismail – as quoted by NST.
I wonder whether that’s the case under Syariah law. If so, then it would mean that Anwar is guilty until he has proven otherwise. That sounds unjust to me.
July 11, 2008 at 3:45 pm
and the winner….. the law is an ass!!
July 11, 2008 at 3:45 pm
1st of all, NST only calls UMNO scholars and lawyers and not the impeccable and known ones in this nation. So it holds no water. If a case is filed, an answer is needed from the one the case was filed against in all cases. Saiful would have to produce evidence and sustain his argument here. Note: the BN media kept quiet when the case was filed in the Shariah Court bcoz the rug has been pulled under their feet, and this again forces them to contract UMNO scholars and lawyers to explain to us. Already, it has been explained and Islamic scholars have spoken. There is the Qazaf case now, so DSAI is the aggreived party and Saiful needs to convince the court why he didn’t Qazaf AI.
July 11, 2008 at 3:45 pm
If semen containing anwar’s dna was found on saiful (in his as..) then all that would mean with certainty is that anwar’s semen was there. How it ‘travelled’ there is not answered with full certainty. It may mean anwar could have ‘liwat’ saiful, or anwar’s semen may have got there by some other means (you can speculate 1000 speculations) and these shall remain SPECULATIONS! So unless the act that saiful complaint about is done in a room with one way mirror where 4 CREDIBLE witness watched from the other side (unlikely for the witness of penetration to be standing by their sides), then the only credible act in support of saiful’s ACCUSATION is for him to swear and demand that Allah punish him now if he is a liar! Let’s not forget that 23 year old well built saiful the accuser is accusing a 60+ years old man with a bad back of FORCING himself unto him in an act which I understand would have to be sufficiently aided even between consenting parties!
July 11, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Did quran ever talked about liwat? If yes, how to handle liwat? If no, why keep referring to old book? Quran is a guide. All the religious people are too shallow minded. Can’t they keep religion to themselves? It is between them and their God.
We should solve problem using the today’s laws.
July 11, 2008 at 5:08 pm
If this was an episode In the series Crime Scene Investigations (CSI), the very presence of Anwar’s DNA extracted from the butt of Saiful would incriminate Anwar. However, that is a show where the science is carried out by the correct methodologies and by trustworthy scientists, and police.
In Malaysia, we do not trust the scientists, the police, the AG, the judiciary, the military, the politicians, the civil servants, and even shopkeepers.
So how can any scientific evidence shown in court be perceived trustworthy?
What OTHER process is there for us to really trust someone is guilty or innocent?
The very fact that these questions are asked by the public proves that the basic foundation of Malaysia is no longer stable and reliable, where justice moves to the whims of the executive and those who have enough money to bribe.
So bluntly put, there is no hope for anyone to obtain justice in a shifting judicial foundation; be it in Shariah Courts, or in Civil Courts.
tzarina,
Complete agreement
July 11, 2008 at 5:18 pm
I am surprised in the matters of syariah laws which are guided by the holy book, there is no clear interpretation for zina and liwat under the Malaysian Islamic law.
Even more surprising in the holy book, there seemed to be an inequality of punishments for an adultery offence by a woman which is punishable by death BUT for sex between 2 men, they are “punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful”.
However, being an inquisitive person myself, I googled at how Iran interprets its Islamic penal laws on adultery and sodomy.
http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/refworld/rwmain?docid=3ae6b51b8
It appears that in Iran, the laws are specifically spelt out. And if DSAI is to have filed his complaints in Iran syariah court, he would have been on the right track.
Extracted:
“Article 117:
Sodomy is proved by the testimony of four righteous men who might have observed it.
Article 118:
If less than four righteous men testify, sodomy is not proved and the witnesses shall be condemned to punishment for Qazf (malicious accusation).
Article 119:
Testimony of women alone or together with a man does not prove sodomy.”
So, to my amateurish law mind, how can a country’s syariah law differs from another country, if both are guided by the principles of the Holy Koran?
July 11, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Bro, although Dr. Siti Zubaidah and Zainul Rijal may be correct in their interpretation of s.41 of the enactment, the beauty of syariah law is that it is open to interpretion. As Hukum Syarak overides any enactment. Hence, burden on DSAI’s legal team to argue that liwat can fall under Qazaf.
Btw, there’s no definition of rape or rogol in the said enactment nor in the Quran.
July 11, 2008 at 5:39 pm
no wonder Malaysia is in such terrible mess. Arguing about nonsense ! btw is there any so-called “Islamic Country” that is not insane ?
July 11, 2008 at 6:18 pm
It was reported that this innocent 23 year old uni dropout was sodomised by Anwar no less than 8 times in various places – Hong Kong, Singapore and Thailand. Why did this a******e wait so long to report? Why didn’t he report the ’sexual acts against nature’ the first time that happened, if any?
Did he only realize that he had been sodomised after meeting up with the UMNO stalwarts such as Najib. Incidentally what has a uni dropout got to do with asking for scholarship for further studies when he could not prove that he has the grey matter to study at Uniten?
I wonder he was advised to report only when his advisors have got Anwar’s DNA samples first? After all Anwar had been in prison for a long time and had been admitted in hospital for various ailments.
Looks like anybody can accuse anyone of sexual crimes and in Bolehland. It is the accused who has to prove his innocence.
If that is the practice, why was action not taken on RPK’s SD? Those accusations were indeed mind-boggling. Why was action not taken when PI Bala made his first SD?
If Anwar has to prove his innocence, then the DPM, his wife, her bodyguard and the C4 expert must also be found guilty unless they can prove their innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.
July 11, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I don’t think it is very difficult for Saiful to produce 4 witness eventhough there are none in the first place.In Bolehland,money will do the trick and in no time many will scramble to be one.
The most reliable proof is the medical checkup but again in Bolehland,if immigration records can be deleted,medical report from govt hospital can be modified too.
Looks like AI is in a deadlock.The only winners-the four ‘bought witnessess’ or the ‘bought doctors’.Money for the former and promotion for the latter.
MALAYSIA BOLEH…..2008 TAHUN MELIWAT MALAYSIA…..SATU LAGI PROJEK KERAJAAN BARISAN NASIONAL…..
July 11, 2008 at 7:43 pm
I write this comment not knowing very much, so correct me if I’m wrong.
First off, I’m not quite sure why it has been brought to the Syariah Courts.
If I understand correctly, the Syariah Courts take precedence over the Civil Courts, so if a case is brought to the SC, then it does not concern the CC anymore.
Response : No, SC does not take precedence over the CC. Civil High Courts, the Court of Appeal and the Federal Court all form part of what are referred to as the superior courts. The SC falls within the category of inferior tribunals.
Was Anwar the first to make this a religious issue by bringing this to the SC after being ‘challenged’ or advised by certain parties to bermubahalah, or was the mubahalah that got this whole sodomy case intertwined with religion in the first place?
Response : i think Saiful first challenged DSAI to mubahalah
I’m assuming that the SC has not yet decided whether it will allow this case. From what you’ve posted here, I understand that “liwat” doesn’t warrant a “punishment”, so to speak. So is liwat a criminal offence according to the Syariah Laws?
Response : What I intended to convey through this post is that Section 41, by its terms, does not have anything to do with liwat, or an allegation of the same. Section 41 relates to an allegation of zina. The ‘4 eyewitness requirement’ relates to an allegation of zina, and not liwat, as per the language of section 41.
If it isn’t an offence, I would only assume that this case cannot be brought to the SC, because there is no allocation for liwat. But it is an offence under the Civil Law (one that I find unjust, but let’s just leave it for the moment), and if so, shouldn’t the case then be brought back to the CC?
July 11, 2008 at 11:39 pm
What would happen if one man accuses you of sodomizing him. If the burden is on you to prove your innocence while the accuser just has to sit and watch how you are going win a case, what would you do?
July 12, 2008 at 12:27 am
I came across this definition of Zina:
“Zina according to the Shari’ah is any illicit sexual intercourse. Thus pre-marital sex, extra marital sex and homosexual intercourse are all considered Zina according to Islamic law.”
Please read this:
http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/2001/0413.html
July 12, 2008 at 1:04 am
I posted this in MT and since this is on the same subject, I am re-posting it here.
Let me see if I understand the debate here. If someone accuses another person of illicit sex, that person have to bring forth 4 male witnesses of the act for the charge to stick.
So if a woman have been raped, she will not be able to accuse her rapist unless she can produce 4 male witnesses to support her accusation. If this is the case, I suppose we can conclude that there are no rapists since it will be near impossible for the woman to produce 4 male witnesses to the act.
I would have thought that there will be a difference between accusing 2 persons of an illicit act and a violation against oneself. Perhaps there is someone in this forum who can enlighten on this.
Cheers.
July 12, 2008 at 10:38 am
Today is July 12, 08 and Anwar still has not sworn on the Quran. Swearing on the Quran, the Bible or your mother’s grave may not result in anything. But it puts your whole credibility on the line. If you are found to be lying afterwards, it should cause you much shame. But these things are worth two cents only in Malaysia. Anyone can swear on anything.
BUt Anwar is afraid of something else. He is afraid that if he swears on the Quran to tell a lie, he may be struck down by lightning or something similar. That is why he is afraid to swear on the Quran.
In a related post Drachen suggests that negotiations /discussions are going on behind the scenes that we don’t know of – N with AI, AI with AAB, N with the Americans, AI with M.
Possible. I think this is the last we will see of Anwar & maybe Najib. A deal can be cut. Badawi and Anwar got Najib by the balls. Now Badawi has got Anwar by the balls. No one has got Badawi by the balls because he aint got none. One way or other Badawi will exit the scene, before 2010.
I think as Dr M said Najib will never ascend the throne. Anwar too will never make it. Ku Li also seems a non starter.
Surely a Prophet is due to appear on the scene.
July 12, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Patriotic 1994,
I sincerely hope this is helpful? pls refer to 15:71.
No thanks to our (sexual ) education, wonders if our
`ustaz` ever heard of sadomachism?
July 13, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Haris, you said that you agree with Dr Siti Zubaidah. She said that the burden of proof shifts to Anwar merely because someone accuses you of buggering him (if I read your quote correctly). How convenient and how absurd. Sure you do not agree with this, do you???
TJ,
Apologies to all. I overlooked that part of her opinion.
It cannot be right.
He who asserts the positive bears the burden of proving the same.
July 26, 2008 at 11:28 am
JJ at 1.04 am
If you accuse me (a man) of having illicit sex with another woman, you have to produce 4 witnesses. This is under hudud.
If you accuse me of having non-consesual sex with you i.e rape, you are the victim. This is not under hudud. The Qur’an mentions nothing about rape. The authorities of the land is free to make up whatever laws and procedure to handle this.
The Qur’an is a book of guidance, not a canon of law. Only very despicable crimes are metioned and addressed to by it.