Malaysiakini’s BREAKING NEWS at 3.48pm reports that the cabinet at its weekly meeting today agreed to the appointment of a Royal Commission of Inquiry to look into the death of Beng Hock, whilst the Malaysianinsider reported earlier that the cabinet had ordered the suspension of all anti-graft officers involved in the investigation against a number of DAP and Pakatan Rakyat (PR) executive councillors in Selangor.
The fight for justice for Beng Hock isn’t over with these cabinet decisions, folks.
The terms of reference and the composition of such a Commission are now of utmost importance.
To secure this, all planned vigils, memorials and other public gatherings to express outrage with regard to Beng Hock’s death must continue and now press for the widest possible terms of reference that will give the proposed Commission the fullest possible powers and scope to investigate every conceivable aspect of this case.
And we must press for a composition of the proposed Commission that will allow for public confidence in the same. What was previously demanded through the civil society memorandum the Friday immediately after Beng Hock’s death was that one-half of the Commission members be either from the opposition or be opposition-nominated.
tigermania
July 22, 2009
Hear! Hear!
Paul Warren
July 22, 2009
The terms of reference of the commission cannot be confined to just the death of Teoh.
It was a chain of events beginning with the setting of goals, the strategies adopted and the handing over by people with the authority of an institution of government, the MACC, to achieve those goals that culminated in the death of Teoh.
From the arrest of the two, then, PKR Perak ADUNS on a charge of corruption to the recent “investigations for supposed misuse of funds by Chinese MPs in Selangor it is clear the raison-de-tre of MACC as we all understood them to be, was not exactly on the minds of those with the authority in MACC.
The inability of MACC to see the elephants in the room and yet chasing after imagined rats in the room requires answers. Teoh died as a result of them chasing after these imagined rats. They got to explain how it is that they could be so blind as not to be able to see and to recognise the elephant in front of them and yet they were on a hunt for imagined rats. It is like me not being able to climb the Gasing Hills and yet there I am trying to climb Mt Everest.
It is important that the credentials of MACC and their officers have to be established. Firstly whether they are even qualified let alone if they are professional.
This Commission also has to determine if the advisers of MACC who sit on various panels as eminent citizens have failed in their duties and, therefore, not qualified to continue on as advisers. If I, who am a nobody, can see that the MACC have failed in discharging the intent of the law that gave birth to them, the advisers should have should have been in a better position to determine so. Did the advisers even let it be known that being blind to the elephant in the room their credibility and indeed their mischief in wanting to chase imagined rats would subject them to ridicule? Indeed in any proper court of law, not the Malaysian kind of course, it will be almost impossible for any of the officers in MACC to argue their credibility. That alone should lose for them any charges they may file on anyone.
Yes, Haris, hopefully you and your other legal friends will craft for us Anak Bangsa Malaysia, our expectation of what the terms of reference of the Royal Commission should encompass. From the advisers, the MACC’s officers, the death of Teoh, the UMNO politicians pulling the strings, all of them should be covered by the terms of reference.
Hawkeye
July 22, 2009
Hold the Champagne? Damn.. ok will put the bottle back in the chiller. Was just about to cork it.
Hawkeye,
You meant uncork it, didn’t you?
teo siew chin
July 23, 2009
Dear Hawkeye
I prefer you use the bottle to cork up that one’s orifice! wink wink
mosesfoo
July 22, 2009
Fully agree.
Lynn
July 22, 2009
Yes, Haris, Najib is calling for a Royal Commission because he has no choice – his little napoleons use too much initiative and being stupid jerks, messed up his plans to destabilise the Selangor Pakatan Rakyat State Government.
Yes, lets continue to express our outrage for the unnecessary death of a promising young Malaysian at the hands of a government institution – the MACC.
I strongly agree that the terms of reference must be wide-range and half the composition of the Commission members must be from the Federal Opposition. We will not settle for less.
It is time that Najib make sure his little Napoleons do not insult our intelligence anymore.
mosesfoo
July 22, 2009
This one is for the people, not partisan politic or about any politicians.
joey
July 22, 2009
just read LKS blog. the royal commission is a disappointment!! LKS has expressed his dismay at the terms of ref for this RC. its only tasked to look at the MACC’s procedures!! and not investigate Teoh’s death. pathetic…
Jini
July 22, 2009
Same old. Same old. RCI will investigate and come up with NFA stamped on this one. How many others have gone the same way? Meanwhile, the MACC officers suspended will have a paid holiday and come back when everything has died down.
foodforthought
July 22, 2009
It will be another correct, correct, correct episode where there will be insufficient evidence to prosecute. kes tutup. And thus close another chapter of malaysia bolehness.
mauryaII
July 22, 2009
We have had so many RCs within a short span but nothing decisive to correct the many unsavoury findings of the said commissions have been implemented.
Whatever was recommended was put aside and some watered down and outright impotent bills have been passed. The bill on the judiciary was a sham. IPCMC recommendations were not implemented in toto. Setting up the MACC in place of ACA is a joke. All these institutions have become hounds of the UMNO/BN to chase after the Opposition and those who criticize them.
The Police, Judiciary and the MACC have been competing with one another to please their MASTER/S that in their unholy enthusiasm poor, innocent folks are sacrificed.
But doing NOTHING and being PASSIVE is not the answer. We should keep demanding that justice is served and seen to be served. How long can these shameless and pedellars of immoral governance can go on denying the rights of the rakyat? Surely the day is near when passivity would be replaced with activism of a more bold kind. Fury of the disgruntled masses won’t be stymied that easily by the top echelon goons in blue.
Let us soldier on for a brighter future for all Anak Bangsa Malaysia.
karmannghia
July 22, 2009
RCI has achieved very little, MACC is probably going to give answer such as “I cannot remember”
Little result will come of it.
foodforthought
July 22, 2009
There is no longer a need for a RCI. Two berita harian’s ‘experts’ have given their opinions. All is well in bolehland.
http://whatalulu.blogspot.com/2009/07/lulu-ptuis-berita-harian-for-publishing.html
Now I understand why umno is what it is.
I am running out of abuse to hurl at them.
al-sadr
July 22, 2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
Have taste of Gitmo detention camp at our very own backyard.
Ah Beng
July 22, 2009
RCI to investigate the interrogation procedure and NOT who casue his death???
That’s not what the public want!!!
hamzah
July 22, 2009
RCI ala committee to look into MACC procedures … ya, rakyat are being royally screwed!
Oneofthesedays
July 23, 2009
Royal Commissions are a Lingam.
Time to HARTAL my people!
It is the only way….
Sagaladoola
July 23, 2009
Royal Commissions of Inquiry should inquire the Right Thing : Death of Beng Hock !
http://sagaladoola.blogspot.com/2009/07/royal-commissions-of-inquiry-should.html
Read the mainstream papers tomorrow and more or less you can probably guess what they are trying to do. It is not that hard ..
Shakuntala
July 23, 2009
Haris, you talk about public confidence in a yet to be appointed RCI.
Will it contain persons such as you, who constantly and tirelessly campaign for Justice and Equality for civil society? We have never had the government instilling confidence in us. It’s just not the in thing. On the contrary, we’ve had fear instilled into us….
The vote for you to sit in on the Commission as representative of the Peoples’ Parliament, would be unanimous.
From the Opposition one can think of able and trustworthy names…If and when such a composed RCI is annonced, can we have the confidence, knowing that the truth and nothing but the truth will result in honour of the late Teoh Beng Hock. And the truth shall make us free.
wudan
July 23, 2009
Dear Haris,
The foreign forensic-pathologist to be engaged by Tan Sri Khalid Ibrahim is Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunan. However, she required one day notice before she can fly into KLIA.
But Teoh’s parents do not want to prolonged his funeral and we must respect that. Khunying Pornthip is one ‘kick-ass’ lady and she can make the dead talk to her. We just misssed the help of this remarkable lady.
Dr Pornthip credentials : http://absolutelybangkok.com/t…#more-5208
Please ask the PR leader if they can still secure the help of Dr Pornthip as an independent forensic pathalogist expert.
It doesn’t matter if Dr Porntip can’t perform an autopsy on Teoh’s body but she can still give her opinions based on pictures taken, review evidences gathered and visit the crime scene. Dr Pornthip may also collaborate with Dr Prashant Samberkar as he was at the crime scene and I believe Dr Prashant was involve in Teoh’s autopsy.
Prior to the Cabinet meeting yesterday, Bakri Zinin, the Federal CID Director and the bloke who assaulted Raja Petra Kamarudin, has already given a clue on how Teoh’s case will be investigated.
Here : http://malaysiainsider.com/ind…eohs-death
Otherwise we may never seek JUSTICE for Teoh and the TRUTH shall forever buried with him. Believe me.
donplaypuks
July 23, 2009
“Well-placed sources and officials close to the MACC said Teoh was “manhandled and threatened” by investigators during a 10-hour interrogation as part of a political conspiracy to bring down opposition leaders, led by Anwar Ibrahim, and to implicate them for alleged misuse of funds.
“When he refused to do so, the officers dragged him to a window on the 14-story building and threatened to throw him out,”said the source who was not authorized to speak to media.”
Well, this piece from Malaysian Mirror is interesting. Check it out at:
http://malaysianmirror.com/homedetail/45-home/5374-you-stupid-china-man
dpp
We are all of one Race, the Human Race.
That is all that really matters.
oA
July 23, 2009
.
A killer would not want to have any investigation done on himself would he? and especially a fair one.
.
wudan
July 23, 2009
Sorry Haris, don’t know what happened to my link. I try again
http://absolutelybangkok.com/the-police-minder/#more-5208
http://malaysiainsider.com/index.php/malaysia/32837-cid-hints-at-possible-coroners-inquest-into-teohs-death
anomie
July 23, 2009
Haris, U r dead right!
U want RCI, no problem – I’ll give u one with a limited terms of reference.
(Ha, the joe public r easily satisfied. Moreover, what terms of reference, It’s all mumbo-jumbo legal eagle terms, anyway. It’s already a RCI as requested. That’s good enough.)
Furthermore, the findings can also be manipulated, just like all those RCIs before this one. Delay & procrastinate will play the tricks! Joe M’sians have VERY short memory, too!
So, give TeohBH a posthumous trial? U have it – but whether it’s fair or not, don’t u dare ask, OK?
anomie
teo siew chin
July 23, 2009
Dear Hawkeye
Better still, use the bottle to cork a more appropriate orifice.
malayamuda
July 23, 2009
its amazing
Mahathir cant remember what HE did in the LingamGate scandle.
But he can remember what the Chinese and Indians did 50 years ago.
Selective amnesia !
tigermania
July 23, 2009
Hi Haris, I believe Aisehman says it right:
Everything Ventured, Nothing Gained
22 July 2009 | 2,122 views | View blog reactions
Royal Commission for what?
The last two we had achieved little in the way of making things better and punishing the guilty.
The Royal Commission is only going to look at the interrogation methods of the MACC.
You don’t need a Royal Commission for that.
If you want to know, just ask people who have been grilled by the MACC. They can tell you what it’s like.
And an inquest for what?
We all know what the cause of death was. An autopsy by doctors from Tengku Ampuan Rahimah Hospital and University Malaya Medical Centre showed that Teoh died from the impact of falling from a great height. It also showed he did not have any injuries before the fall.
How he got there is another matter.
If after completing investigations, the police cannot, do not, or will not reveal who or what caused Teoh to fall, what makes you think an inquest will have a more revelatory effect?
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Real power, true power lies with the government and the “enforcement” apparatus under its command.
Change the government and maybe we’ll have a fair chance at changing things.
It’s a long shot, I know, but it’s better than getting nowhere, which is what you’re getting now.
Malaysianatheart
July 23, 2009
Here we go again!! Venting venom on blogs like this ain’t gonna get us anywhere folks. We all know that the RCI is an eyewash. Question is what can we do about it??! Answer of course is – NOTHING!
You people think they really want the truth to come out? Cannot -la! They all have to protect each other. Can the government say – let the truth come out and let the MACC officers responsible take the fall!- No they can’t! These very same MACC officers have all the dirt on Najib and gang. If they are going to take the fall for Theo’s death – they will bring Najib and gang down too – the truth about Altantuya may surface, the truth about Khir Toyo may surface, the truth about PKFZ may surface – oh no! – no way can the truth about Teoh’s death be told. No one in MACC is going to take the fall for this – and keep his mouth shut.
So what are you guys hankering after?? What you want can never be achieved. It is impossible. Get real folks! Haris and all you commentators out there are being unrealistic – as usual. Why don’t you direct your energy at something more useful – like getting the thousands of young Malaysians out there registered as voters and disseminating information about the abuses and inequities in the system etc. Prepare for the 13th General Elections folks!
mauryaII
July 23, 2009
The police said they found the handle to open/close the window near Teoh Beng Hock’s body. If he had indeed jumped out to commit suicide, why should the window handle be near his body? It is really strange and far-fetched to assume that he had jumped while holding on to the handle.
It is more likely he was HOLDING ON TO THE HANDLE FOR DEAR LIFE to keep from falling down. Why should a young man in his prime and about to get married to his fiancee try and do such a ridiculous thing?
Was he trying his best to save his life? From whom? Since it was at the MACC’s premises, does it take rocket science to conclude that he must have been fighting for his life from those goons responsible for the ordeal of being quesioned until 3.45am.
As he was not even a suspect in a corruption case, why is there a necessity for being interrogated late in to the wee hours of the morning and not during standard working hours? Is it part of the modus operandi of the MACC as well as the police to deprive people of their sleep to get them disorientated to get the type of confession/report that they need? Doesn’t it matter such confessions/reports got under duress are nothing but rubbish? They may help the MACC and the police to go on an ego trip as being competent, but isn’t it amoral?
The RC which is being set up to probe into the death of Teoh Beng Hock can only redeem itself if it consciously, deliberately and fastidiously goes about unravelling the mysterious circumstances that led to his death.
The RC should act without fear or favour in executing its mandate. Failing which the members of the RC would be held responsible for being immoral as well as to the dereliction of duty.
A young man’s life has been snuffed out. People are outraged and they demand justice. Is it politicking to demand justice for an individual who lost everything including his life on the day he was to be married?
malayamuda
July 23, 2009
come to think of it, Siva Kumar could have been the Beng Hock of Perak…………..fortunately he was not killed as he was the Speaker
atanco
July 23, 2009
Please be patient. God isn’t finished with them yet .
Time is the Truth ??
Antares
July 23, 2009
Najib was installed PM in the lingering shadow of another unnecessary death – that of a foreign national named Altantuya Shaariibuu. His administration has a lot of blood on their hands. Absent a major miracle, there may well be a lot more before enough comfortable folks realize that integrity and compassion are far more important values than personal “success” and upward mobility.
Ls
July 23, 2009
The RCI is there to find out if the windows at the MACC building needs to be replaced, are who are the original manufacturers of the windows, they want to interrogate these manufacturers for failing to provide proper strong window latches that cannot break. They will arrest these manufacturers for breach of security in a secured building.
k c low
July 23, 2009
The establishment of RCI is because the Rakyat demanded it. BN is not interested instead MACC is encouraged to continue the harassment of PR. Imagine for RM2,400.00, the full might of MACC was used. For millions squandered by former Selangor MB. Imagine visiting all the Disneyland around the world and staying in RM100,000.00 suite a night. Yet MACC did not act at all or maybe dare not to act. These burgers in MACC have nothing between their legs
Looks like BN is using MACC to destroy PR. What a shame. Anyway the change will certainly take place. PR please take care.
Hartalmsm
July 23, 2009
http://margeemar.blogspot.com/2009/07/omar-goh-dap-behind-teoh-beng-huats.html
There are conspiracy theories swirling around about Beng Hock’s death & one blogger that readers should get acquainted with is this outlandish pro-Umno theorist Goh Wei Liang.
More about GWL in Margeemar’s other postings.
Ling
July 24, 2009
I think Ku Li should be appointed to head this RCI. He may be from UMNO but he is of a better ilk.
Paul Warren
July 24, 2009
This is the calibre of people Dr Koh Tsu Khoon wants to see in the RCI, “There should be a choice of candidates who have high credibility and integrity, with expertise and experience in legal matters and some knowledge of the government.”
Can I say that all the 41 members of the advisory panel of MACC would have fitted into that description?
These 41 eminent persons lent their names and by their giving their names hoped to give a shine to a otherwise bunch of raw hides!!
May I suggest that since these 41 advisers miserably failed in their duties that they would not qualify to sit on the RCI! Hence the standards set by Dr Koh might just be impossible to achieve from amongst the eminent persons he envisions!!
Tongkat Pak Ali
July 24, 2009
Bro Haris,
RC is investigating the MACC procedures minus The Cause of Beng Hock Death and I can see that this scenario is like the Malay Proverb “Mencari ikan terubok dalam kolam renang…….manalah nak jumpa …..akhirnya kepunan saja kita dapat”….. I don’t see any reason at all to celebrate or to be happy about it. Just keep on pressuring and keep on pushing for the truth until the justice has been prevail.
pinsysu
July 24, 2009
BN_UMNO will stop at nothing to make sure they remain in power and where they have lost it they want to rob it back by hooks & by crooks and they dun care who die … so the Royal Commission is nothing but a Royal Con_Mission. wat are we gonna do abt it? GE13 seems a long way to go and how many more innocent Msians have to perished in the hands of the crooks?
Paul Warren
July 24, 2009
So, we shall have the RCI to examine the interrogating and investigating procedures. The Inquest to determine cause of death. And the police to determine iff a crime was committed and if so who!!
I suppose the intention is that by the time this potpourri is put together we shall all get thoroughly confused.
And to achieve this they have to recruit the King as well. Now what happens when the King turns around to ask what has come of the Lingam RCI? And he tells them not to make him look like a puppet? What is amazing is that someone in UMNO thinks the King can be recruited to ensure he gives the credentials to this whole scheme of things to cover up for the MACC! Because by the King consenting to this terms of reference he inevitably contributes to this circus intended to ensure information for each of the three parts is kept apart and by so doing leave the opening necessary for the MACC to slide through with ease.
I would also like the potential commissioners of this royal commission to know that by acceding to this terms of reference they would be colluding with the powers that be in UMNO to thwart truth from coming out. That being the case they would be no different from the ordinary con man or the snatch thief who snatches away the life of innocent victims. Maybe worse!!
As for the Magistrate who lords over the inquest, we already don’t trust whoever it is that is going to be that Magistrate…unless of course it is Komathy!! And as for the police? They got a big debt to pay to the MACC already as it is, so what can we expect?
I think the only way to scupper this attempt at conniving and deception we should appeal to the King not to approve the terms of reference as approved so far by the Cabinet. it will only undermine the credibility of Royal Commissions.
Shakuntala
July 24, 2009
Haris you spoke too soon and perhaps with some hope about the RCI and what it would rightfully adhere to in its terms of reference..?
As you said quote,” the widest possible terms of reference that will give the Commission the fullest possible powers and scope to investigate every conceivable aspect of this case.” You could not have been more explicit and well-meaning.
They have given the Commission crumbs to feed and report on and it is called Royal Commission.
Najib Razak just wanted a fanfare,to make his meaningless pronouncements to show how good the government is, to listen to the people. He has fooled us…again. What a sham RCI this is, that has been fed to the people
How utterly disgusted we Malaysians are ..PM Najib you do not even want to know how poor Beng Hock died,where has your good sense gone…you are supposed to be our Prime Minister? Were it your family, would you be so careless?
YOU CANNOT FOOL ALL THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME.
Burung
July 24, 2009
Gods know
Scientists know
Every human being know
our
Flesh ,
Blood and
Soul ….
are created by our biological mother.
Child is part of a mother’s flesh and blood and soul.
How dare you take him or her away without any valid reason.
I sincerely urge all compasionate mothers to stand up and stand out to voice.
Mothers you have absolutely right and power to
Know the truth !
Know the truth !
Know the truth !
.
.
.
Helen Ang
July 25, 2009
Zainul’s evil twin is NST editor Azmi Anshar.
Read here,
http://english.cpiasia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1640%3Amsian-heart-rebuts-azmi-anshar-on-rci-story&catid=219%3Acontributors&Itemid=156#josc1397
nstman
July 26, 2009
Dont waste time with these royal commissions of inquiry, or what not. It is all written in the script. The outcome is obvious. The inquiry will pin the blame on the opposition. The inquiry will blame Teoh’s death on DAP. The inquiry will expose gangsterism in the DAP. So ladies and gentlemen, I have already done the work of the inquiry. The inquiry is a whitewash and hogwash. Need I say more?
nstman
July 26, 2009
I agree with my ex-colleague Helen Ang. The twin evils of the NST are Azmi and Zainul. But the greatest evil is Ahmad A. Talib, the most hated moron in the country. Ahmad is considered Malaysia’s Dr Josef Goebels, but I consider it an insult to Goebels because Ahmad is a illiterate mutt while Goebels was an intellectual. Ahmad cant even write three lines to save his life. This guy’s English is atrocious.
Patriot
July 26, 2009
Or approve the previous comment and make it a public apology.
yapsir
July 26, 2009
The Heart of August
After many days of reflection on the late BH Teoh’s incident. I finally come to my own words to describe what was transpire.
Just one word:-Aselgeia.
aselgeia in greek denotes “excess, licentiousness, absence of restraint, indecency, wantonness and lasciviousness.
Which indicates a love of sin so reckless and so audacious that a man has ceased to care what God or man thinks of his actions, which contain the idea of shamelessness, outrageousness.
[ It simply denotes wrong doing so open and so blatant that it has ceased to have any regard for what anyone may think or feel or say.
The characteristics of 'aselgeia.' have wanton and undisciplined action. It is the action of a man who is at the mercy of his passions and his impulses and his emotions, and in whom the voice of calm reason has been silenced by the storms of self will.
It has respect neither for the persons nor the rights of anyone else. It is violent, insolvent, abusive, audacious. Any thought and sympathy for the feelings of others has ceased to exist.
It is completely indifferent to public opinion and to public decency. A man may well begin to do a wrong thing in secret; at the beginning his one aim an desire may be to hide it from the eyes of men. He may love the wrong thing, and he may even be mastered by it, but he is still ashamed of it. But it is
perfectly possible for him to come to the stage when he does openly and blatantly that which he did secretly and in concealment. He may come to a stage of sin when he is so lost to shame that he no longer cares what others see, and what they may say, or what they may think.
The terrible thing about Lasciviousness is that it is the act of a character which has lost that which ought to be its greatest defense--its self-respect, and its sense of shame. "Flesh and Spirit," by William Barclay.]
The journey for truth, justice, transparency , fairness, freedom, righteousness has just begun. It takes our unity, perseverance and willingness to make it happen.
Let the “Saya Anak Bangsa Malaysia” come together to make Malaysia a better place for our children and their children to come.
yapsir (Henry Yap)
Patriot
July 26, 2009
Or if you did guess who I am, but find what I did so abhorrent that it is very difficult to forgive, tell me if there is a way I can earn that forgiveness.
moses
July 26, 2009
For a wider dissemination of the news on Miss Jane Burgermeister who was dismissed from her job as a journalist of an Austrian newspaper after she had file a bioterrorism against the people of the US and the rest of the world charges in the US court
http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/about-my-being-fired-yesterday/
Report about the worldwide Bio-Terror Assault on the Population
http://wakenews.net/html/jane_burgermeister_-_report.html
Helen Ang
July 26, 2009
Oops, my comment above was meant for this Ppl’s Parl posting on July 20 — “Nazri, you dialled the wrong number, lah. Call Zainul of BH and tell him to shut the #*@? up!”
Patriot
July 26, 2009
Haris,
Please understand I don’t make it my habit to leave a comment unless I feel there are some things to say and it is not the first time we have slightly different opinion. In this case it is about you “raving” about politicizing which then got changed to “exploiting” or something. I get what you mean but I hope you also can see a bigger picture. I left a comment that although there is only circumstancial evidences, I see a partial replay of Perak and both of us don’t want that to become a full replay.
Just leaving a comment here to use Khalid Samad’s word to sort of bolster my “case”
From Pakatan claims BN plots Selangor Government ouster
: “Khalid Samad accused Umno of wanting a repeat of what happened to the Perak PR administration in Selangor, except “this time they were targeting DAP instead of PKR.
moses
July 27, 2009
Haris
There is a question that I like to ask you. In the event that the current “swine flu” which has already at the pandemic level 6 as declared by WHO gets worse, are there any piece of legislation that secede our national authority of vaccination to WHO, that is does WHO has any right or authority to take over the role of enforcing mandatory vaccination of the “flu” pandemic on Malaysia? I’ve read that in the USA, the UK or EU and Japan has such legislation in place should such matter occur as it is occuring now.
Regards
p/s The previous links about journalist Jane Burgermeister that started me in finding out.
Moses,
Could be wrong, but I do not think the same would apply here