I am referring to some of the opposition leaders who have responded to Mahathir’s devillish stirring of the old hudud issue, and the stance of the many non-Muslims out there to this ridiculous matter that seems to have gotten so much attention this last two days.
Whoever crafted this piece in Malaysianinsider is absolutely spot on.
I quote : “It is a no-brainer why Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad dredged up the issue of PAS’s pursuit of hudud law in Kelantan“.
In 2002 or 2003, I think, Dr M did the same.
Needled PAS to detail their proposed plan for an Islamic state in Terengganu, then under PAS rule.
Hadi bit the bait that Dr M tossed at them.
Came up with their blueprint for their Islamic state in Terengganu.
Kit Siang’s reaction to PAS’s posturing then says it all.
In the 2004 GE, PAS paid the price for falling for Dr M’s ploy : Terengganu went back to BN
Is it not obvious enough that Dr M’s latest salvo on the hudud issue is simply to try to get PAS to feel obliged to defend their ‘Islamic state’ ideal and get DAP to respond with a defence of the secular nation that we are?
Yesterday, FreeMalaysiaToday reported Tok Guru Nik Aziz as describing Mahathir as ‘lucu’ for his latest attempt to drive a wedge between DAP and PAS.
Today, Malaysiakini reports HERE and HERE a war of words between DAP’s Karpal and Nik Aziz, the latter saying that DAP can leave Pakatan for all he cares if they are not in agreement to PAS’s agenda to establish an Islamic state!
What the @#$% is going on?
I am particularly baffled by the response to this whole hudud business by Anwar.
Yesterday, Malaysiakini reported Anwar as saying that he personally supported Kelantan’s bid to implement hudud law.
“For now, in general, in principle, I believe this can be implemented. Looking at the specific areas and there are clear guarantees on the administration of justice. It does not in any way infringe on the rights of non-Muslims,” Anwar is reported to have said.
There are clear guarantees on the administration of justice?
Does not infringe on the rights of non-Muslims?
Dato Seri, tell that to the widow of Seargeant Moorthy.
Tell that to the family and friends of the late Lawrence Selvananthan.
What baffles most, though, is this.
The Kelantan hudud law that Mahathir has raked up again and which Anwar now supports implementation, was passed by the Kelantan Legislative Assembly in 1993.
However, to be effectively implemented, it needed an act of Parliament to clothe the syariah courts in Kelantan with the power to implement the hudud precribed punishments.
That meant that UMNO and the BN government would have to support such a bill in Parliament.
This put UNMO then in a spot.
Anwar was then the deputy president of UMNO and the deputy prime minister.
To the best of my knowledge, the law passed in 1993 remains unchanged to this day.
If Anwar now says that it is now worthy of support and implementation, perhaps he can now share with us why it was not okay to be supported in 1993?
Perhaps Anwar also needs to take note of some of the scholarly criticism on the ‘Islamness’ of the Kelantan hudud.
I will say this, though, Dato Seri.
Your stated stance on this issue has left you walking a fine line.
I will not pretend to speak on behalf of others who profess a belief in Islam.
I speak for myself.
I do not care to have hudud-lums telling me how to practise my beliefs.
This is a secular nation and I will align all my energies with the party that stands to defend it.
I am not alone in this.
Do not take our support for granted.
Perhaps Dato Seri and the other leaders, both in Pakatan and BN, would do well to hear out what Bishop Dr Paul Tan Chee Ing had to say on this matter, as reported in Malaysiakini today.
I quote : “I say it’s time to allow Muslims in Kelantan, if they so desire, to implement syariah only for them and with that the hudud enactments provided non-Muslims are exempt from its implementation”.
Do not pretend to know what those who profess the religion of Islam desire.
And even if it can be ascertained that the Muslims of Kelantan would have hudud imposed on themselves, do not take their mandate as applying throughout our secular country.
To the rest of you, judging from comments on this issue that I have been noting in cyberspace, you too choose to walk a perilous path if you choose to see the imposition of hudud anywhere in this country as merely impacting upon the Muslim community.
Or must you be placed in the position of the family and friends of the late Lawrence Selvananthan before you wake up to the danger lurking before you?
Zigger
September 23, 2011
I still think not to be afraid of this hudud law because if it is not good, the muslims themselves will vote out PAS after 1 term of implementation. PAS will lose Kelantan and they will learn a lesson after this. If the muslims do not fear it, why do non-muslims fear it. By letting Kelantan had it first, we will know what it is like. After all, we can always vote out PAS if hudud laws are found to be not good.
Haris Ibrahim
September 23, 2011
Zigger,
You appear to have missed my point.
This is a secular nation.
The Federal Court, in 1988, said so.
I do not want hudud law in my country.
Ask the Muslims if they want hudud.
Hold a referendum.
And if the majority of Muslims, all well-informed, elect for hudud, and it is then implemented, I will quietly leave this country.
Until then, I will fight to retain a secular system in this nation.
Adam
September 25, 2011
No Haris, even a referendum cannot change the nature of our FC as it is against the spirit of the constitution. Otherwise how are we going to protect the interest of the minority like in East Malaysia who has formed Malaysia based on a secular system.
If we allow a referendum on such a major point, what would prevent a referendum to change our country to a republic? No, all Malaysians should be protected and it should be based on the agreement when Malaysia was formed in 1963. No two ways about it.
Haris Ibrahim
September 25, 2011
Bro, my sense is that if a referendum is to be held on this issue, after all those who profess Islam are fully appraised of all the ramifications, Islamists will lose out.
That’s my sense.
The problem is that Islamists will not allow for the fullest dialogue to enable all issues to be ventilated
Adam
September 25, 2011
So Haris, we must never allow such a referendum in the first place. The majority of Muslims especially from the kampongs are simple-minded folks who are very protective of their religion. They would not be able to consider the long term ramifications of such a move and the dire consequences on our multicultural society.
Parli-Man
September 23, 2011
VERY WELL SAID HARIS
Mark Yap
September 23, 2011
“I say it’s time to allow Muslims in Kelantan, if they so desire, to implement syariah only for them and with that the hudud enactments provided non-Muslims are exempt from its implementation”.
I really like this, the right to chose. So for that matter, it does not concern the non Muslims as it is the right of the Muslims to choose.
Also, if we do no wrong, what is there to fear !
Having said that, unfortunately, it is not always black and white …….
Many thanks Harris for sharing your thoughts and insight on this issue.
I really wish our politicians do better…
Their behavior and response ,,, what can I say ..
Mark Yap
September 23, 2011
I think I miss your point Harris after a re read.
Secular State as in the constitution.
I guess I am too simple minded to think there can be 1 system form Muslim and 1 System for non Muslim in our country.
I do appreciate you line of argument and am disappointed with the rhetoric from our politicians which I think lack sincerity , Anwar included for that matter.
Mark Yap
Kasim Baba
September 24, 2011
“Secular State as in the constitution.”
Really? Where? Have you even ever read the Constitution?
Mamak-GetLost
September 23, 2011
The PAS extremists will frighten away all the non-Malay voters with this type of rhetoric. They
cannot even compromise their self-interest for all inclusive Malaysian interest and want to rule the country?
If so more chinese might migrate, not to mention moderate malays too. Stupid and short-sighted people
who are not doing any good to anyone including to their Allah by politicizing Islam.
Pak Yeh
September 23, 2011
The PAS hudud is unfortunately not Gods Laws but are Lahwal(fake) Hadis Laws, which Allah Himself warned Muslims not to use.(ref Quran 31:6 “Some people use lahwal(fake) hadis to mislead others from Allah’s path, without knowledge, and ake a ockery of it(Allh’s path/Islam) .
Read more “The Ying and Yang of Islamic Law” at…
http://warongpakyeh.blogspot.com/2008/11/hardying-and-softyang-of-islamic-law.html
Kasim Baba
September 23, 2011
Haris, this is not a secular country. It does not become secular just because you and people like you keep repeating it. If you want to keep insisting otherwise, prove it. And by prove, I mean show where in the constitution it says this nation is secular.
I don’t want to wait for your reply, so I’ll just go on and give my arguments why Malaysia is NOT a secular country:
From wikipedia, definition of “Secular state” (in brackets are my comments):
A secular state is a concept of secularism, whereby a state or country purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion (Malaysian government allocates funds and resources for the advancement of Islam in Malaysia).[1] A secular state also claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion (Muslims are subject to shariah law, so are teated differently than non-Muslims), and claims to avoid preferential treatment for a citizen from a particular religion/nonreligion over other religions/nonreligion (Malays are constitutionaly Muslims, and Malays have special rights). Secular states do not have a state religion or equivalent, although the absence of a state religion does not guarantee that a state is secular (Islam is the official religion of Malaysia). In addition, secular states are not necessarily communist nations that do enforce state atheism on the population.
So as you can see, Malaysia does not meet the definition of a secular state as defined in Wikipedia. Maybe you don’t agree with Wikipedia. Feel free to edit the wikipedia page and put in your definition of a secular state. Until you do so, please stop saying Malaysia is a secular country. Repeating it again and again does not make it so.
Haris Ibrahim
September 23, 2011
Kasim Baba,
The Federal Court, in the case of Che Omar Che Soh, in 1988, confirmed this to be a secular nation
Kasim Baba
September 24, 2011
So whatever a court says is right, is it? Didn’t a court say that Anwar Ibrahim was guilty of sodomy? But wait, another court then acquitted him, didn’t it? So a court can be wrong, can’t it? And don’t say the Federal Court is the highest court in the land, and what it says, goes. It is still made up of people and people can be wrong. In 48 years of Malaysia, so one court decided that this is a secular nation. This does not change the fact that the constitution as it is written, and the conventions and practices of the government, does not meet the generally accepted definition of a “Secular State”.
themalaysianman
September 24, 2011
Malaysia is suppose to be secular according to the constitution. What you are saying is that the government are not following the constitution. In fact all nations are secular, except those that are Islamic. For faith is a matter of the hearts.
Eric
September 25, 2011
Kasim Baba,
if you could care for a piece of advice, you would gain a lot by reading and quoting the actual Constitution and not some (yours? UMNO’s?) interpretation of it. Especially on your “Malays have special rights” and “Islam is the official religion of Malaysia” ideas.
Good day.
F22
September 24, 2011
As a Muslim, what’s your plan to implement god’s laws in this country? Everyone know it’s hard but suffice if u ever think about it Haris. for non-muslim, it’lll become another story.
bsiow
September 24, 2011
What prize would Al get under this Hudud remuneration system for Sodomee?
Talk shit only! He lagi takut than anyone of us.
Jimmy Loong
September 24, 2011
Malaysia is neither Secular nor Islamic Country. It is a Hypocritical Country. The very clear proof is the two famous Sodomy cases which were committed by both Orang Islam were not tried by the Syariah Court.
shakuntala
September 24, 2011
When people wrangle about religion are they living it?
I dare say that most of us know of hudud laws as being inhuman.
Will they not further tarnish the very name of Islam………It is ok for MM and the others mentioned to advocate it……they only emphasize their true colours….. as political animals, not HUMAN BEINGS.
.
Jomfikir
September 24, 2011
Hudud is the teaching in the Al-Qur’an. It is the law that Allah SWT Demanded it must be implemented as the law for the muslim people.
It is better for all Muslims to understand this Verse of Allah SWT.
وَمَن يَعۡشُ عَن ذِكۡرِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ نُقَيِّضۡ لَهُ ۥ شَيۡطَـٰنً۬ا فَهُوَ لَهُ ۥ قَرِينٌ۬
“If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance of ((Allah)) Most Gracious, We appoint for him an evil one, to be an intimate companion to him.” [Al-Zukhruf : 36]
.
Chin
September 24, 2011
If you can’t follow man’s law (Constitution) forget about following God’s law. You hypocrite!
Kasim Baba
September 24, 2011
What logic is this? It is infinitely easier to follow God’s laws compared to man’s. God’s laws don’t change, but man’s laws keep changing. What’s legal today might be illegal tomorrow.
themalaysianman
September 24, 2011
Its suppose to be the Muslim god’s law and not other people’s god. But if there are laws to safe guard the non Muslims so be it. If one is willing even a Muslim can subject himself or herself to their god’s laws without the implementation. But I don’t see that happening here but the reverse instead. This is hypocritical.
But first let a Muslim who don’t believe in Islam anymore be a non Muslim first, by the words from his/ her mouth. When Muslims can’t even guarantee the rights of an apostate , what more the rights of non Muslims? Harris and Imtiaz can testify for us.
Arun Paul
September 24, 2011
“Where there is division, there must be conflicts” Living in conflict leads to violence. Where there is violence, there is no love for one another. Living in a divided society, in perpetual conflict is not ‘Intelligent’, therefore no compassion, no peace and ultimately no progress. A government that does not see the fact or the root of this fragmentation, and which is bound by divisive laws will only choke the life out of this terminal nation by stoking the fires of conflict and that is not intelligent governing. Life, something immeasurable cannot be caged into concepts that limit it’s understanding. Remove these religious burdens that impede the growth of this beautiful country and learn to look at the world without the lens of religious conditioning.
shar101
September 24, 2011
Hudud-lums??? Sooo .. Boyz from the Hood shall now be re-phrased to Boyz from the Hudud eh.
Have alwayz believed that a secular state provides more for a muslim than an islamic state can ever do.
And theological islam does not recognise the nation state, only political islam does. Hence, an islamic state is a political construct.
As an analogy, how soon do you think Earth will one day be called an islamic planet if these hudud-lums get more bright ideas.
—00000—
As for Kasim Baba – why wasn’t the Fed Con written in jawi or for that matter, why was Reid the gwailo involved in preparing it? Where were the so-called melayu islamists then?
Perlembagaan Persekutuan dalam bahasa ibunda pon tak mampu nak buat sebab terlampau lama sangat minda melayu (UMNO) di jajah dek oghang putih. Lepas tu, nak berbahas pon pakai Wiki sebab otak sendiri tak tahu/pandai guna.
Lynn Chenag
September 24, 2011
shar101, loved your rebuttal to Kasim Baba! Actually also loved your views on Islam, theological and political Islam.
galadriel
September 24, 2011
That wily old fox drives a wedge, and the less sophisticated fellas melatah la. I can take the easy way out and say let the Kelantanese implement hudud to the hilt cos i won’t be affected by it.
But I do wonder, what does my Muslim brothers n sisters think about a second layer of laws governing their lives, and they have no bloody say in it. I say educate them and let them be aware of what lies ahead for them.
WTF
September 24, 2011
Dear Haris,
I’ve never paid full attention to your writings, not because what you write aint right, but maybe because from looking at the photos of you, you strike me as a guy not to dissimilar from my self, i hate wearing collars, in fact i never wear trousers or shoes, only shorts and flip flops.. because its bloody hot here and of course I get disrespected most of my life for the way i dress. ANYWAY.. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE AND RESPECT WHAT YOU’VE WRITTEN ABOVE
“I do not care to have hudud-lums telling me how to practise my beliefs.
This is a secular nation and I will align all my energies with the party that stands to defend it.
I am not alone in this.”
I’M NO BRAINIAC, SO I WOULD’NT KNOW IF WE LIVE IN CURRY HOUSE OR WHORE HOUSE BUT WHATEVER IT IS
I’M WITH YOU SON!! YOU’RE NOT ALONE
I SAYANG YOU NOW ABANG, BIG TIME!!
JUST TELL ME, WHO THE HELL DO I VOTE FOR? WILL I GET PAID?
ablogsmith
September 24, 2011
WILL I GET PAID?
Get paid to vote? There is something worng with WTF who needs money to vote for the party that will govern the country well. If someone pay you to vote for an evil party which has destroyed the country institutions, will you take it? Shame on you.
hasilox
September 24, 2011
PAS better start thinking about how to manage a country. Religion can’t feed the people. Looks like what is happening in the arab’s world can’t wake up everybody.
What already proven a failure won’t work. What already known a scam, don’t bite.
concerned malaysian
September 24, 2011
I’ve been following the politics in Malaysia for a while through the various blogs despite being out of the country for over 20 years. I admire your passion about wanting to make a change but for me, whether it be PKR on BN, to me they are different sides of the same coin. One side is merely dirtier than the other. The problem I see is the perpetuation of the same problems over and over again. Race and religion will always be a sticking point. It does not matter which coalition is in Putrajaya! The day I consider returning will be when brave politicians can come up with one party, one agenda, one vision of what they want Malaysia to be. The issues of malay, non-malay, muslim, non-muslim, east malaysian, west malaysian all need to be put to bed. Until then, I shall wait patiently.
burn
September 24, 2011
am truly tired when seeing religion and politic are mixed together.
it is a never ending story. others are already moving forward, yet some prefer to go backward all the way instead.
since ages ago… it is known, rule of law are man-make-law…
zaman dulu dan karang tak sama.
Francis Pereira
September 24, 2011
You are a class act my friend!
Farouq Omaro
September 24, 2011
Congratulations Encik Harris! I don’t believe in applying a certain religion’s interpretation as law. Laws should be applicable to all and must be based on universal justice and human rights. Malaysia is a secular country and that is why Sabah and Sarawak agreed to its formation.
themalaysianman
September 24, 2011
Man never learn or else we are all living in heaven. Its not about winning the election but living a righteous life . If the leaders can’t even walk righteously what can we expect the nation to be? An evil and wicked generation today. For the poor and weak are perishing by the millions daily and we are arguing about another law to show who is more holy?
Yes, because man and Muslims are blinded by pride ,they never learn again.
abusyukri
September 24, 2011
Did tok guru say hudud or shariah law?
Our shariah law is not hududullah..
ablogsmith
September 24, 2011
You will support the party that support a secular country. That leaves you DAP and MCA. so which one shall it be?
Haris Ibrahim
September 24, 2011
ablogsmith,
MCA?
Ptuiii!
MCA does not support anything but itself and its cronies.
That only leaves me DAP, PSM & PRM in semenanjung and a whole host of parties in Sabah and Sarawak.
Good start, if you ask me.
Malaysian
September 24, 2011
You couldn’t say it better about MCA! Just the mention of it makes me want to puke. And the same goes for Gerakan. Now I know why MCA = Make Chinese Angry!!! Perhaps angry is a mild word.
As for this screaming and shouting between Pakatan leaders about hudud, it beats the hell out of me why they didn’t smell the trap set up by DUMNO! I thought DUMNOs are stupid but helas, so are some Pakatan leaders.
As for hudud (or any religiou rules for that matter), if implemented and interpreted by zealous bigots can be dangerous for the society. Why can’t we leave our religion at home? Our religion is between our God and us.
Duke Cheng
September 24, 2011
You are right on track, bro!
Keep it coming.
goldenscreen
September 24, 2011
I am also baffled by so many of the comments in other pro-PR sites supporting HUDUD even from non-Muslims. Their arguments is that HUDUD is only for Muslims and not non-Muslims so we should support it, but as we can see even in present day Malaysia, many non-Muslims have already been entangled in the Syariah laws such as the body snatching cases, husband-wife divorce, conversion of small children and orphans, couples holding hands in KLCC and I do remember one time an American couple’s hotel room was barged by the Islamic enforcers checking for Khalwat.
With HUDUD in force, who can guarantee that no more violations of non-Muslims rights will not take place? And make no mistake, HUDUD is just one step in a long line of steps towards implementing the Islamists dreamed of Islamic state. Then entertainment outlets will be forced to close during Ramadan, cinemas and supermarket checkouts will be segregated, you can forget about any concerts, heck maybe we won’t even be able to see movies and read books that are deemed un-Islamic.
And worse of all, anyone who dares to voice dissent will be branded as an enemy of Islam and Allah and treated as such. When you mix religion and politics, the outcome can only be very volatile. I pray Pakatan Rakyat and their slavish supporters do wake up soon from their lemming like behavior. Because the more I see, the more I think BN is the lesser of two evils.
najib manaukau
September 25, 2011
Do you need further proof that this lusty Anwar is still, wishful illusion, to become the P.M.. As I have all along maintained his aspiration to become the first non Umno led government to watch over Malaysia.
As a result he is doing all the tricks to delay the inevitable, the jail, anyone with some common sense can see he is trying very very hard to stall the proceedings that are taken against him in court. One thing that is out of the bag from all this is where the hell he is getting all the money he is able to spend right now ? He was able to hire a useless and good for nothing bump to be his coffee boy and take him abroad to make him his ‘daily coffee’. They must have been corruptly obtained from the days when he was the DPM and he is able now to throw them around !
That was also done so abroad that his ex deceitful and corrupted colleagues would not be able to have the Umno lackeys, the Malaysian police, to indict him as they were crimes committed abroad.
But his lust got the better of him when he was back in Malaysia, he may now be fighting now on technical grounds that it was consensus according to his own lawyer. Even if he can at the end of the day get away with this indictment which I am sure he will be unable to do so, the stigma of such a lusty person should and will never be the P.M. of a country.I would say for certain that he should now wash his own backside and wait to spend his twilight years in jail.
The only people I have some sympathy for are his wife and children especially with the stress that this lusty Anwar has brought them.
bigjoe99
September 25, 2011
My problem with your agreeing with Bishop Paul is that the term ‘if they so desire’ is open to interpretation itself. The fact of the matter is survey shows that, when asked, most Muslims in this country say they accept Hudud but when those same people are asked, most of them have not read what it is..Letting Hudud start is a one-way street or at least a Pandora’s box in this country, there is no reversing it because there is a long line of half-baked Islamist who will pay ANY price to keep it and our appetite for the price they dish out is limited.
Serious Shepherd
September 25, 2011
Malaysia is a secular state as in the Constitution.
Just asking, how many anak tempatan was in the commission that drafted the Constitution?