Michelle Yoon writes :
‘No, I do not have any experience of the inside, nor the outside of Kamunting Detention Camp. I don’t personally know any of the ISA detainees. I don’t even know anyone who used to be detained under the ISA. In fact, I’ve never even been close to anything related to the ISA.
But if something is wrong, I will not stop.
The ISA is wrong. I will not stop. It is the ISA that has to be stopped.”
Read the rest of her thoughts HERE.
Posted in: The voice of the people
The People's Parliament 
I like chopin
July 9, 2008
Both Uncle Zorro and Michelle has a point here.So,Brother Haris,what is the punishment for being guilty of treachery and treason?Death?Life imprisonment?
And what are the chances that we the rakyat can tried our Prime Ministers for treachery and treason?Is it permissible in our laws?
I like chopin,
I think Zorro was speaking metaphorically
Meng
July 9, 2008
I would look at this in this way. ie the ISA should not be abused.
Many years ago I wrote to the MCA chief LLS why the ISA should be retained based on my findings. It was based on the rise of the muslim militant in Malaysia and in the region. From feedback from personnel covering the world airport security , it provided a trend and indication of the their movement/spread and that this form of militancy if not contained would have severe repercussion for Malaysia. It would be much worse than the communist insurgency as these new militant group would be urbanised in their dirty work. Their disruption and destruction would be much greater compared to the communist insurgent who were confined to the jungles.
Two week after sending the letter to LLS, Mahathir came out to say there are muslim, buddhist, christain and hindu terrorist. I do not know whether the letter was passed to him or not but it rang a bell.
Sure enough the problem of JI surfaced here and in Indonesia…followed by the mainunah group and others.
We cannot overlook the fact that the muslim militant are by far the most dangerous as compared to our last insurgent. The only way to contain them is through ISA. No doubt many would say there are other laws that can put them away but one must remember to source and obtain the evidence is never easy. We know he is a militant but cannot be caught redhanded, so meanwhile what do we do with them. let him roam and carry out more destruction??? This is a delima for the police.
Here the ISA plays an important role, put them away their cells will collapse providing a clear linkages to the militant.
I agree the present use of ISA has been abused to shut down politician, hindraf etc in the absence of any armed threat and I am strongly against this.
I support the ISA but against the wrongful use of it. It is subjective
Meng,
You may want to re-think your position.
We may need a preventive detention law, given the current global terrorist threat, but the ISA in its present form is simply not it.
The ISA should be repealed and replaced with a preventive detention law that has adequate checks and balances put into place.
You asked : We know he is a militant but cannot be caught redhanded, so meanwhile what do we do with them. let him roam and carry out more destruction??? This is a delima for the police.
My suggestion : If we truly believe in ‘innocent until proven guilty’ and that ‘a man must not be denied his liberty until convicted by a duly convened court of law and upon the presentation of legally admissible evidence’, the answer to the problem would be to detail enough police to keep tabs on the individual, either to neutralise him as a threat or to garner the evidence that would confirm our surest suspicions of his guilt.
su
July 9, 2008
Haris, correction to your response to i like chopin‘s comment. The metaphor of being guilty of treason and treachery was mine. Zorro made no such conclusion.
Thanks for the correction
MAHSWRAN SUBRAMANIAM
July 9, 2008
Where got justice in this country?the perception I get is if u are powerful and influential the law is in your hands.ISA is just to keep the innocent quiet so that the guilty can roam free to create more havoc for the RAKYAT
barry
July 9, 2008
The ISA is an evil relict left over by the British during the communist insurgency, and is constantly and blatantly abused by the monkeys in UMNO to retain power. Mahathir used it liberally to brutally put away those who dared to question his insane plans, and stupid Badawi continues to abuse it, to hang on to power. ISA must be repealed, there is no justification for it.
MAHSWRAN SUBRAMANIAM
July 9, 2008
we do not have any natural disasters but we have our dear politicans who are our tsunamis and cyclones.we can be warned but is there a way to escape?
Meng
July 9, 2008
Haris, even with the preventive detention law, don’t you think that it will also be subjected to abuse with the current clown of a goverment we have. It is governance that destroy the law. The law is good in the hands of a matured politician who is unbiaised in his administrative style.
To have more personnel to keep tabs is questionable as it takes a 1000 man hours to nab one. To keep tabs yes definitely it is done but it never ends.
Say A is under surveillance by 3 pers, when he comes in contact with another ie B, B has to have another 3 to keep tabs and so on and on it goes. Where do we get the manpower. Of course some would be ruled out later but A’s contacts keep growing a game which never ends.!! Theres never enough of cats.
The only solution is a change in governance or a solid independent judiciary
Meng,
Independent of the question of the integrity of the serving administration and the judiciary, any preventive detention law must have the requisite check and balance.
fitr
July 9, 2008
If there is a poll on ISA, to abolish or not, I am with you, Meng. Terrorism activities scared me.
In the absence of any better law to physically contain terrorists activities, we still need ISA. Of course, I also would not agree to the ISA to be used as political tool for the current government administration.
For example, the financing part of terrorists activities. Yes, we have the AMLA. But it is not easy to trace back the records. It takes time. And while time is not there, events of terrorists activities had occurred. Just take the example of Bali bombings. Malaysian bank connection.
Be it as it may, at least with ISA enforceable, these terrorists suspects can be contained physically, breaking the links.
fitr,
Please read my rejoinders to both of Meng’s comments to this post.
warrior2
July 9, 2008
I left a comment in that blog which amounted to a question that must all views/stand/position remain the same regardless of time period/environement and scenario?
Some people are kepala batu/ or i it keras kepala that they dont care what was before and what is now and the context!
ajip
July 9, 2008
meng
why need isa. if u confirm the suspect. catch him. put him in jail. and trial in court. bring all the evidence. no need to put the guy in jail for 2 years without trial? what if i police catch DAP chinese guy and say that this guy link to communist. would it be the same. look how police tell us about hindraf. they said these people link to Tamil Tiger from Sri lanka.
u guys full of hypocrisy
Meng
July 9, 2008
ajip
Presently there are some chinese linked to the communist but mind you they have given up the armed struggle. Majority of them are in southern thailand and a few remnants are in the peninsula, their whereabout are known. These few remnants are not a threat to the national security. Even if the DAP guy is known to be a communist, I do not think he will be arrested. It is no more militant in nature but solely his ideological believe.
At the height of the communist insurgency China admitted the link and only as far as ideology was/is concerned.
As for hindraf, has the Tamil tiger come out openly to deny the link, if one was made …not to my knowledge. Tamil Tiger is a structured organization and sympathy for them are held wdely amongst the Indian. A long time feud between ceylonese and tamil. Can you proof there is not contact between hindraf and tamil tigers.???
Meng,
You asked : Can you proof there is not contact between hindraf and tamil tigers.???
Response : You are asking that a negative be proved. That is generally an impossibility, except perhaps in the case of alibi evidence.
For instance,back to the matter of my charge of stealing a pair of jeans.
Do I first prove that I did not steal, or must the prosecution first lead prima facie evidence of the theft, thereby forcing me to rebut with evidence.
He who asserts must prove. That’s the first rule of thumb.
Those who assert that there is a connection between Hindraf and the LTTE bear the burden to prove that assertion.
tempatan
July 9, 2008
Haris I couldn’t agree with you more. There is no room any longer I think, for detention without trial – we should come out of the dark ages. Any law can be abused as they are now for instance the sedition act but at least its ‘victims’ have a go at defending themselves in court. You can still have an effective preventive detention law with appropriate checks & balances with minimal abuse if there is complete separation of the judiciary from the executive. (correct me if I am wrong for I am no legal pundit, this is my simple understanding). What is the use of Vision 2020 if we still cling on to these draconian laws? On a lighter note, we have been denoting perfect vision as 6/6 (in metres)for many years now, no longer as 20/20 (feet). Shows how behind times that ‘Vision’ was!
tempatan,
you do not need to be a legal pundit to understand the basic concept of justice.
And you, sir, have got it spot on.
ghenjis khan
July 9, 2008
I have the greatest ADMIRATION of Amnesty International.
Non-Violent Political Detainees are always the Victims of Cruel Governments.
and Malaysia is one of them and made worse by Muslim Government Leaders.
splim
July 9, 2008
During a recent forum on the ISA, Tian Chua was of the opinion that the ISA is detrimental to the effectiveness of our police force and is counterproductive against terrorism. The police don’t have to enhance their investigation and surveillance skills. ISA makes them lazy. You can put a person away for good w/o having to gather any evidence against that person.
To use ISA to combat terrorism is already a victory for terrorism. The objective of terrorism is to put us in bondage of fear so that we give in to the demands of the terrorists. ISA engender the same kind of fear. How then can one fight fire with fire?
If Pakatan Rakyat were to come into power and the ISA is not abolished, what guarantee there is that they will not abuse it? Can you trust human nature?
A law such as ISA has no place in a civil society. As long as we have such law, we do not have the freedom from fear.
splim,
Abolishing the ISA only requires a simple majority vote in Parliament to pass the requisite bill.
PR have made a promise to repeal this draconian law if they come to power.
We must hold them to this.
splim
July 9, 2008
Tian Chua actually confirmed this when asked on PR’s stand during the forum.
Yes. We must definitely hold them to this. No compromise.
su
July 9, 2008
Haris
You said in response to splim’s comment that the PR have made a promise to repeal the ISA if they come to power.
I distinctly remember that they also said they would file for a motion to that effect in Parliament even before the first sitting. It is now into the second session of Parliament, and I have yet to hear anything of it. Did I misunderstand, or have they simply forgotten about it in the midst of what has been happening?
su,
Unless I’m mistaken, the motion was presented but rejected outright.
su
July 9, 2008
Ah..so I was the one who “lost” that bit that happened. Then I won’t hold them guilty of empty promises. At least not for this one.
mwrmmg
July 9, 2008
Isn’t ISA is in a way preventive detention law? Forgive me if I’m wrong.
You said to Meng,
“My suggestion : If we truly believe in ‘innocent until proven guilty’ and that ‘a man must not be denied his liberty until convicted by a duly convened court of law and upon the presentation of legally admissible evidence’, …”
To prevent a crime by detention by proving guilt is tricky when the crime has not been committed yet.
To wait for the evidence of the crime sometimes may be too late, especially when they involve innocent lives.
It has been a long debate on this . Personally, the security and freedom of the majority counts the most, rather than to dwell on the grey issues of minority.
All of us made their decision and voted, and it is not just about ISA.
mwrmmg,
You asked : Isn’t ISA is in a way preventive detention law?
Response : Yes, it is, but it has no adequate check and balance built in.
You observed : To prevent a crime by detention by proving guilt is tricky when the crime has not been committed yet.
Response : If sufficient steps preparatory to the commission of the crime have been taken by A, there is the offence of attempting to commit the crime in question that A can be charged with.
You observed : To wait for the evidence of the crime sometimes may be too late, especially when they involve innocent lives.
Response : Which is why some countries spend millions on monitoring suspected terrorists and their network activity, to enable them to get in hand the requisite evidence to launch a pre-emptive strike pursuant to preventive detention laws that have adequate checkes and balances built in.
You observed : It has been a long debate on this . Personally, the security and freedom of the majority counts the most, rather than to dwell on the grey issues of minority.
Response : In my view, after 1948, with the adoption of the UDHR, these issues can no longer be considered in the context only of the majority – minority interest dichotomy. There is the added and, in my view, more pertinent and pressing spectre of the basic rights of all human beings.
You observed : All of us made their decision and voted, and it is not just about ISA.
Response : Yes, and I thought that we voted for the upholding of the constitution. If so, in my view, the ISA is a blatant disregard of the rights under Article 5
walski69
July 9, 2008
I guess this is directed to Meng, and to anyone else who think that the ISA should be retained, but not abused.
This comes from a lay-person’s POV, by the way. The ISA, to me, is basically a just-in-case type of law. It would appear that suspicion, without the need of solid evidence, suffices getting somebody put away. It has been abused for political reasons in the past, and there is still the possibility that it can be invoked to quell political opposition.
I probably share one thing with you, though, Meng – I too am scared of terrorism. It scares the shit out of me.
At the same time, if there is evidence, other than suspicion and the guilt of association, then these suspects should be formally charged in court. Resorting to the ISA only tells me that there is no evidence, and therefore the said suspects are in merely on suspicion and guilt of association.
Reading Mein Kampf doesn’t make one a Nazi, incidentally. Neither does reading Chairman Mao’s Little Red Book make one a communist. Having ties with known organizations of terror, by the same token, does not necessarily make one a terrorist, unless there is evidence to the contrary.
But if there is evidence, then charge them formally.
Granted, there probably are valid legal arguments involved here, but to a layperson such as myself, who truly detests violence and acts of terror, it is as simple as this:
The burden of proof should never be to prove one’s innocence, but of one’s guilt.
Samuel Goh Kim Eng
July 10, 2008
When one fights against injustice
It doesn’t matter who the victims are
Since it’s a fight without prejudice
It doesn’t matter who the victors are
(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 100708
http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
Thur. 10th July 2008.
meng
July 11, 2008
Terrorism is never easy to contain. No matter how much manpower is assigned to surveillance. Look at Iraq, Pakistan and Lebanon or nearer to home..in southern thailand and others. Who suffers, the ordinary folks who wants to earn a living. Markets, shopping complex, mosque,Temples and churches and name it for the next terrorist move/action would not be known to the police even if malaysia have a million policeman on surveillance duty. It is always too late to stop a bomb from exploding. The world is witnessing the death of ordinary folks everyday.
The police and other security apparatus cannot be everywhere but the terrorist can…to chose their targets to their liking. Time and place is theirs often out smarting the police.
Known contacts are often the offshoot or splinter groupings that carry out their dirty work with or without the sanction of the main group. It is a price to pay if one thinks otherwise.
An intellectual and a Terrorist mind reading a doctrine or a terrorist manual have different approaches,thoughts and action. Their reaction are opposite to each other.
Please visit :http://www.globalincidentmap.com/map.php
splim
July 11, 2008
Please read Rocky Bru’s posting today, ‘When an ISA detainee’s daughter dies ….’ I’m so angry. F*** U Syed Hamid!
splim,
Sad