Pakatan Rakyat and a great many of the rakyat have one common aspiration : to kick the present corrupt BN government out come the 13th General Election.
That’s any time between now and 8th May, 2013.
Many feel it’s going to be very much sooner rather than later.
Possibly even next year.
Imagine, as the results are announced, come the 13th GE, and it becomes evident that BN has lost.
Then imagine the next day that, instead of a Pakatan Rakyat leader being appointed Prime Minister, news starts to make its way around that several Pakatan Rakyat MPs have gone ‘missing’.
Talk of cross-overs abound.
Two days later, Muhyiddin appears at a press conference, surrounded by former Pakatan Rakyat MPs, who now declare themselves as BN-friendly independent MPs.
Enough former Pakatan Rakyat MPs who are now independent and BN-friendly for Muhyiddin to claim to have the confidence of the majority in the Dewan Rakyat and consequently the right to the PMship.
We have seen enough since the 12th GE to know that unless candidates of unquestionable integrity are picked to contest, the scenario I have described above is a very distinct possibility, if not a near probability.
The sad truth, however, is that the three Pakatan Rakyat parties just do not have enough good men and women within their ranks to contest all parliamentary and state seats.
Throw in PSM in semenanjung and SAPP in Sabah and they still would not have enough.
Truth is that the three Pakatan Rakyat parties have, with a view to improving the quality within their ranks, approached many in civil society who are perceived as good candidate material to join their respective parties, without too much success.
I, too, have approached some of those in civil society who, in my view, have the qualities that would serve the nation and the rakyat well in parliament and who have intimated to me that whilst they are not at all desirous of getting into any political party set-up, they are prepared to do their part in setting our nation right and, to that end, would be honoured to offer themselves as independent candidates in the next general election if an effective election machinery were in place.
A third force of independent candidates comprising the best that civil society has to offer, augmenting the best from Pakatan Rakyat, to take on BN come the 13th GE?
We could call this third force Barisan Rakyat.
Would this not be viable?
Your thoughts, please.
The People's Parliament 
Razif
August 8, 2010
Very viable.
Go for it.
Niraj
August 10, 2010
Extremely! I think it’s long overdue!
sampalee
August 8, 2010
Yes Go ahead,my support will be there.There is still life in this old cock.
Bob
August 8, 2010
It is about time.
LibangLibu
August 8, 2010
Tuan Haris,
new breed of ‘lalang’?
Redhuan D. Oon
August 8, 2010
You go accept one seat yourself. I know your price is high. When they offer you, they can go bankrupt. At least something worthwhile is achieved.
shanghaifish
August 8, 2010
that,s where people like you, Imtiaz and a few others I know come in……so go for it bro. I don’t think the top leadership in PR know how to smell a rat in choosing candidates. It is 2 years now and the rakyat is still unsure who’s to be trusted or is going to take a “leap” !
I would safely put my money (with what little I have) on you and Imtiaz anytime.
sam
August 8, 2010
Reserve a seat for RPK!!!! Allow him to take on whoever he wish, even the PM.
Shawn Tan
August 8, 2010
If that happens, I can stop advising people to spoil their votes during the election!
Burning Bright
August 8, 2010
Yes, please save Malaysia. We’re just so fed-up with the shitty rhetoric, misrule, greed and waste of the past decades. The country cannot withstand any more wanton destruction.
anak merdeka
August 8, 2010
Have been waiting for this to happen. Go for it!
Farhan
August 8, 2010
err, if this third force is not under PR that means they will be a three way fight in constituents right, the only thing that will achieve is splitting the votes and guess who will win ? i do not think this is a smart thing to do. Why don’t you you all joint PKR, they are the weak link in PR, I’m sure if you have the credentials and the zeal to set things right, you all will be accepted and be appointed as candidates.
At the same time this will strengthen PKR/PR, everybody wins.
You guys are too hard on PKR, even PAS in the early years been plague by defections, sure there is some bad apples in PKR, but there is also a lot of young, committed and dedicated malaysian regardless of race in PKR who also share the same vision that we have for our beloved country. Is it fair to lump this PKR youngsters that is by the thousands in PKR together with those PKR katak’s?
Farhan,
Note that I said ‘third force of independent candidates comprising the best that civil society has to offer, augmenting the best from Pakatan Rakyat, to take on BN come the 13th GE’.
No room for 3-corner fights here.
jeevindra
August 8, 2010
The question is whether PR will allow any “outsiders” to augment the ranks of their candidates.
Unless they come up with some kind of token concession where each of the three PR components agrees to ‘give way’ in 2 seats each or something, political parties are not known to for their magnanimity, or putting talented candidates in the place of those that are more easily controlled, even within their own ranks.
But a total of 6 seats in return for the wholehearted support of civil society, you could probably swing them to do that.
Question is, ‘horse trading’ while the the country tumbles off a cliff? Better to put civil society’s list of candidates and seats, and tell PR to stay out of them. If civil society can play hardball, then this is a good idea.
Farhan
August 8, 2010
Sorry, missed the “augmenting” part, but still in my humble opinion, independents have a dismal records of winning elections in Malaysia, in this coming election Battle that will determine the fate of our beloved nation for the better or the worst, is it better to maximize our chances of winning, in this titanic battle where every seats counts.
We can increase the winning chances by doing what I said earlier, by strengthening PKR, the weak link in the coalition, in the last GE PKR were desperately short of candidates, not quality candidates but candidates!, nobody wanted to be a PKR election candidates, so desperate times called for desperate measures, PKR just take anyone without proper screening as candidates and result, the humiliating “Katak Fiasco” that have befallen PKR.
This time PKR have the time to vet through and the people willingness to be their candidates in the coming GE, what is needed is the men and women with the qualities to serve the nation, I believe that if they have the qualifications they will be appointed as candidates, I do not think the “outsiders, insiders” culture is entrenched yet in PKR, based from my observations of my friends in PKR and PAS, the party machinery personnel is only focused in the greater goal and they’re roles, they do not care who is going to candidates, not like UMNO.
vasantha
August 8, 2010
Dear Haris,
I agree with you.Without people of integrity, it is a losing battle. The first criteria should be God fearing individuals.They should see their job as a ‘calling’. They must be passionate about doing their job well. It helps if they are learned and knowledgeabe about world philosophies and the thoughts of other great human beings.They must be broadminded and able to see the good in all religions. They must build bridges between people and not walls. They must speak plainly and not doubletalk. They must believe pleasure derived from material things is transitory. It is the good that we do that is remembered long after we are gone.
Mad Logic
August 8, 2010
Aiyoyo…macam ini orang buddhist tak boleh dipilih-lah !!!
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom ; not wisdom itself. The end of this fear of God is sweet surrender and divine love then can arise from each one. Sweet surrender(letting go) is very much an aspect of buddhist practice.
sheila pakiam
August 8, 2010
Yes Haris,
The 3rd Force of independent candidates is the sure way to go. They can’t be bought over as they will be entering the arena because they really want to serve and make a difference. Go for it. There must be enough good folk, able to make a difference. It is time for change. Pakatan has been so disappointing because of the turncoats and no real leadership, 3 parties still thinking along the old lines. ‘Barisan Rakyat’ let it be and let’s start working from now to shape it. RPK has to come in too.
sheila
Jong
August 8, 2010
Excellent idea, long overdue infact!
Yeah, the third force Barisan Rakyat to take on BN to bury them, and at the same time see to it that Pakatan Rakyat keeps its words and behaves itself.
Way to go, Haris!
matt
August 8, 2010
At last you have seen that these pr fellows are also very much like the bn fellows,every man for himself.Do you know harris that even with all the problems in Selangor there are still thieves looting the state.Politicians are all the same the only difference is that one is a thief the other a robber.Anyway you suggestion should be lauded.
CPK
August 8, 2010
Theoretically sound and I would personally support that.
However, whether that will work in the real world of politics is another matter.
1. Pakatan Rakyat must go along, so that there will be a straight fight for all the seats.
2. Practically speaking, I think the Independents will have to affiliate themselves and cooperate in some way with a PR party, even if they do not want to be a member.
If I’m not wrong, the Independents will probably be rather highly educated, somewhat idealistic and intellectual individuals with great appeal among a certain segment of civil society – maybe someone like yourself ;)?.
They may be political greenhorns, not connect with the man in the kampung at all, and have no election machinery. They will prob need the ground support and political clout of an established party to survive the political minefield and/or and win an election.
Let’s be real – you don’t win an election on ideals alone – just look at the outcome in Hulu Selangor.
How many ordinary folk cared about ZI’s Cabinet resignation on a matter of principle, his open stand on the state of our Judiciary and Constution? Evidently, not enough to win an election even in a constituency that close to the Klang Valley. What more in the rural heartland?
And how many comments were passed then, about the English-speaking Indian professional in shirt and tie from a totally different world going to campaign among the estate workers?
Only a small proportion of the Malaysian population read Malaysiakini and/or is reachable by Internet.
4RAKYAT
August 8, 2010
no, no barisan rakyat.
focus on pakatan.
dont spread the resources thin.
4RAKYAT
Siebel
August 8, 2010
Hi Haris,
You need to be one of the contestant comes GE13.
RPK too.
Both of you have done so much, planting seeds of awakening amongst the Rakyat. Rakyat can relate to both of you. So, both of you will stand a very very good chance at burying any BN/UMNO candidate….even Najib.
So, please count yourself in.
Thanks.
Siebel
moses
August 8, 2010
The 3rd force seems to be a brilliant idea.
But wait a minute…how these people gonna be “inserted” into any contested constituency without any 3-cornered fight? To agreed on any candidate for any seat in the previous election for three parties under PR was itself a miracle.
Unless…there is mutual agreement and strong understanding from over-inflated egos to give way where seats with only dubious characters are available.
Sound sensible but not without its pitfall.
If you have a way work out, I’m with you and I will start using the private FB channel for more info. It is time to tell these pirates off.
cheah soo jin
August 8, 2010
The problem is too many people think alike, i.e. they don’t trust either BN or PR, yet they too cannot be united among themselves. Soon, there will fourth force, fifth force and so on. Then,at the end of the day, the ‘force’ is fragmented. Who benefits?
Ah Jin
Tony
August 8, 2010
Can’t wait for the D-Day to come?
When the day materialize, we would probably see that Mahathir has left the countries and enjoy his last days in exotic places of the world and drinking champagne to celebrate as “You Ain’t Got Me Yet”.
Ahmad Syafiq
August 8, 2010
Time for negotiations between Barisan Rakyat and Pakatan Rakyat. If there are places where PR don’t have any good candidates, that’s where the Barisan Rakyat can fill in. MPs or ADUNs who have since defected to BN, that’s where Barisan Rakyat can fill in their candidates, and PR must leave those seats alone to Barisan Rakyat to handle.
One Anak Bangsa Malaysia
August 8, 2010
Haris
This is certainly an excellent idea, something which we advocated at the time when Anwar was tantalizing defections per 916.
Yes, agree, we certainly need quality lawmakers, and certainly not the crapmakers whom we now have.
Firstly, we need to look from the point of view of practicality, especially in so far as election machinery and funding are concerned. Yes, you have qualified that “if an effective election machinery were in place”. Now, would we be able to set up an effective election machinery in time? Well, we think it is possible, if Barisan Rakyat gets started now, not later, and we need not aim for the kind of funds needed, but we battle smart, using technologies like Facebook and email campaigns.
So, yes, register Barisan Rakyat as a political party now, and build up its election machinery, election strategies and war chest. (If we really want to see Barisan Rakyat as a force to be reckoned with, we cannot run away from the fact that discipline has to be instituted, and this has to be through party mechanisms; ok, Barisan Rakyat need not be a 100% political party, but some basic form of constitution or standing orders must be in place.)
Secondly, which constituencies will Barisan Rakyat contest in? Yes, you had said the following: “‘third force of independent candidates comprising the best that civil society has to offer, augmenting the best from Pakatan Rakyat, to take on BN come the 13th GE’. No room for 3-corner fights here.” But how do we negotiate with Pakatan to avoid the said 3-corner fights? Knowing them politicians, we doubt if they will give way to Barisan Rakyat. Some of Pakatan’s lawmakers may be hopeless, but we cannot deny that Pakatan is at least for now our hope, and unless the said third force comes into play. Therefore, our view is that Barisan Rakyat can only be viable if 3 corner fights can be avoided.
Perhaps too a good strategy will be to field Barisan Rakyat candidates in places where people like Zahrain, Tan, Wee Choo Keong, etc, ie hopeless independents are incumbents, and also where UMNO currently are lawmakers (just hit UMNO, no need to hit the other parties, as the main troublemaker is actually UMNO). Barisan Rakyat will have to negotiate with Pakatan Rakyat on this, in return for Barisan Rakyat’s support for Pakatan Rakyat’s candidates elsewhere. Yes, it would certainly be counterproductive if there were 3-corner fights.
Thirdly, Barisan Rakyat ought to field a good number of candidates, some of whom must include notable candidates like yourself, RPK (if you guys can convince him), Imtiaz, etc. Like it or not, you really need iconic figures.
Fourthly, focus on the parliamentary seats, ie do not run for state seats. Try to achieve the balance of power status at the federal level, because this is where the control is. Barisan Rakyat, will not be able to build up sufficient resources by GE13, so you guys must focus on where it will be most effective.
Some food for thought.
Over to you.
Rainstorm
August 8, 2010
Hi Haris.
The 3rd force is possible provided that they are of good quality & integrity lots. Otherwise, is back to square one. Btw, there was a typo error. Not 8th May 2013 but 8th March 2013, right?
Rainstorm,
No typo here.
Parliament must be dissolved no later than 5 years after.
Elections must be called no later than 60 days after parliament is dissolved
bystander
August 8, 2010
While I’ve known you and Imtiaz for some time and fully trust you, I am not so sure that this idea will survive the not-so-educated and the onslaught to project it as ‘third force’ in the sense of ‘three-corner-fight’.
Good, holy and praiseworthy as an idea, but horribly unrealistic. If you, if we, really want to kick out BN, everyone will have to bite the bullet, and take up a position in their component of Pakatan Rakyat. I know, there are plenty of arguments against this, but that sacrifice is required. It also will help to keep the integrity and the best for the people power in these parties. Otherwise, it will be BN for another 5 destructive years. Sorry to say.
fireduck
August 8, 2010
While I favor a Third Force, I can also see the validity of some of the comments here. What I think is more important at this juncture, is to ensure that the journey our nation has embarked on in 2008, be continued to long lasting success and eventually become an unquestioned norm. And that journey is not just to displace the BN federal govt, but to develop our political system into a 2-party system with two equally strong parties.
That way, we put the incumbent into notice that if they do not deliver on their service, they can be voted out the next election. And it will apply to either side. Then, eventually, the system will be fine-tuned further into scrutiny of which candidates are better, regardless of parties.
So, for now, and perhaps for our lifetime, let us focus on developing and solidifying the two-party system, for the brighter future for our kids.
ordinaryrakyat
August 8, 2010
imagine a david cameron/nick clegg kind of creative cooperation, radical yet accomodating for the best wisdom, experience, knowledge and bold shifts to flourish, based on rock-solid pillars of godfearing citizenship of uprightness and integrity, stewardship and resposibility, transparency and accountability…go for it haris !!! let’s think big and proactively do, for this small nation presently in a state of heartbreakingly grievous violation…we learn from others, from our past and recent past, and there’s no other way but to how salvage her from further abuse and violation at hands of jerks
if we worry too much about fragmentation, the devil will continue laughing
this would be about galvanizing and mobilizing the right-thinking section of citizenry, a majority? watching with alarm the spiral we have descended into: do it haris !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i pledge to do my bit
shar101
August 8, 2010
Aahhh .. Arise, Barisan Rakyat, arise.
The People’s Voice/Declaration shall be honored and fulfilled.
Joe
August 8, 2010
this third force is ONLY viable after a truly two parties system have been established.
The people will then have a chance to judge who can rule and who can only ruin the country.
Then your arguments are valid.
Until then, the mission is ensure a viable two parties system and Pakatan should be given a chance to prove themselves without Interference. After all we already have 50 years of UMNO rule and we know what it is like and how disastrous it has been.
We are not saying Pakatan is perfect , but then they do have a right to try out.
There is absolute no choice or no other way. The third force would simply gives UMNO the upper hand when those who want change split into two groups.
As far as we are concerned, ANY INDEPENDENT would have to be boycotted without question for now.
Peter
August 8, 2010
Peter here. You know my views regarding chances of Independents and we have had a fall out over the issue. However, as long as it is augmentation (cooperation with no 3 or more corner contests) plus if there is enough time to get properly organized you have my support although not sure if that would count for anything.
gusto
August 8, 2010
Personally, I don’t think this is viable option, a third force consisting of independents.The current weakness of PR are the rural constituencies.PR through DAP and PKR are already strong in urban mixed seats and entry of Third force candidates will weaken PR chances(3 corner contest).We need to strengthen PKR and PAS in all rural seats first.
What is important is for dedicated, clean and highly qualified people to offer themselves to join and offer themselves as candidates /service to the nation via PR.
Admiral Tojo
August 8, 2010
Yes to Barisan Rakyat. In this way, all will be kept on their toes, by the RAKYAT. Go for it Sam.
Shalom
Peter
August 8, 2010
Would also like to appeal for extreme caution so as not to spoil the real chance of a regime change, setting up check and balance “infrastructure” and real reform.
sinleong
August 8, 2010
sorry to say, i don’t agree… since march 2008, thousands of ex-UMNO, ex-MIC and ex-MCA members quit their parties to join PKR and DAP, many bringing along with them their BN corrupt mentalities. these people now almost form the majority in most PKR branches. if you really feel there should be reform and change, you should join PKR or DAP or even PAS to neutralize these people.
nogumshield
August 8, 2010
A very good idea. I have always thought about the quality,or rather the lack of,Pakatan Rakyat’s candidates ever since being disappointed by the soulless turncoats who betrayed the people for financial gain. Identifying young,idealistic,eager to serve youths combined with experienced(also read as older) candidates armed with conscientious minds,integrity and a strong desire to better the country and to ensure the survival of this ailing nation will be a good start. A Pakatan Rakyat election campaign fund could be mooted so that conscientious and financially sound rakyat can contribute to counter the formidable tax payers’ funded BN election machinery. Believe me,there exist a silent majority of closet Pakatan Rakyat supporters who would not only vote for but also donate to the Cause as well,when needed.
sookiesikembangcina
August 8, 2010
I say GO for it, Sir!!! It’s about time to humble a few arrogant heads in the PR. We should have by now a list of Under Performing MPs and make sure that the 3rd Force are way able to replace them.
charis14
August 8, 2010
Without PR support, you will not have the election machinery required to run a successful campaign. Besides transmission of information, you need a huge team to monitor and count the votes.
Noting the difficulty in registering a party, the best option may be for Barisan Rakyat candidates to run under the PR banner i.e. with their support. This was practised during last election and it can be viable with proper negotiation.
Another suggestion is for Barisan Rakyat to provide a listing of BR ‘endorsed candidates’ from PR or other parties – who provide clear guarantees of their personal endorsement of the People’s Declaration (to update version if necessary).
Alvin
August 8, 2010
It might work,as for me,any PR candidate or independents in my constituency must submit a presigned resignation letter to the voters themselves in the event they want to jump party.We the voters will submit their resignation letters to the Speaker.If the candidate is not agreeable to our terms we don’t employ them!We should figure out a recall election.
A true Malaysian
August 8, 2010
Haris,
Malaysia needs a ‘third’ force in the long run, but definitely not in the near future. What is there to talk about third force if there other side of 2-party system (i.e Umno / BN) is so rot to the core?
In any 2-party system, both sides must be equally good and share at least the ideology of multiracial, value diversity and meritocracy.
What we need now is to let Pakatan Rakyat win BIG the next GE, abolish ISA, OSA and other repressive laws, reform judiciary and weed out napoleans in civil service.
I can appreciate many would argue if give too much power to Pakatan Rakyat, it may soon become another Umno / BN in no time. This is where you guys (the so-called ‘third force’) can do your role as balancing force within Pakatan Rakyat this coming GE, i.e. offer yourselves under the banner of Pakatan Rakyat but play as independent balancing force from within.
You can see this in PKR, where people like Elizabeth Wong (formerly NGO activist) play their role in the party. If not, PKR already gone with Umno mentality members like Zul and Zahrain.
The idea of Barisan Rakyat is good but it is a spoiler for the next GE if contested as a third force. If penetration of internet is wider and reach remote rural areas, then rural folks will know you guys better. But, this is not the case now.
I am sure Pakatan Rakyat is willing to offer you all some seats if there are not enough good candidates. People like Lim Guan Eng, Nizar, Khalid Ibrahim are both MP and Adun. Perhaps next round, these gentlemen can concentrate in their respective states as MB and CM, and let you guys to participate in the Parliament. I am keen to see that happen, Haris Ibrahim. You guys have my votes, for sure.
Jong
August 8, 2010
I think some of you may have got it wrong here.
As I read it – it’s neither going to be a third force ‘consisting of independents’ nor a third force to ‘spread resource thin’ for Pakatan Rakyat but more a ‘watch dog’ status and/or advise where necessary, and that the government of the day delivers in the best interest of the nation.
Osama
August 8, 2010
Solidly behind this proposal, will the real good capable men/women from Malaysia come forward? Be with Barisan Rakyat, be the third force to ensure good governance, stop the frogs, and build Malaysia to regain its past glory. That is the only hope for all Malaysians, as we all know where the country is heading under UMNO/BN. Pakatan Rakyat, too had proven to be not too reliable when we needed them most.
Mohd Kalidas
August 8, 2010
Harris, I am sick and tired of the present situation by both BN and Pakatan. I am in for the third force,let me know if you need candidates, i’ll offer my self as we can’t fight from the outside.Count me in brother!
Lynn
August 8, 2010
Looking at the situation now since the political tsunami of GE12, I support your proposal of having this 3rd force to ‘augment the best from Pakatan Rakyat to take on BN come the 13th GE’.
I am sure that Pakatan leaders esp Anwar Ibrahim are anxiously waiting to seat themselves in Putrajaya and they acknowledged the fact that they have a lot of potential kataks in their midst. Thus, they do not have much choice but to co-operate.
But like One Anak Bangsa Malaysia said, it is better to focus on Parliamentary seats. Other than that, I have full faith in you, Haris and gang to pull this off marvellously for the betterment of our country. God Bless You and keep you safe.
rajan
August 8, 2010
Hi Harris,
Remember when i commented “Harris for Wangsa Maju 2013”
I really meant it.
I will raise a portion of your election expenses from my friends and get you enough men/woman ,i mean young educated professionals who will campaign for you FOC unlike the goons ‘they’ employ to do half hearted campaign.
I know You can make it in wangsa maju.
Just rope in MDM. Rasamah Bupalan and You fly to the winning post. She fought a good fight.
Harris ! GO for WANSA MAJU 2013 or sooner.
anne
August 8, 2010
We’d embrace good women and men who’ll walk an uncompromising road of truth, honour, justice, wisdom and knowledge without party loyalties, hangers-on that need rewarding, etc etc
But it would be urbanites who would throw their vote behind these pillars of civil society. Hard to imagine the makciks and pakciks and ah ees and ah peks marking an X against something other than a rocket, moon, “eye” or (horrors!) scales.
PR parties bowing out for a third force in supposed safe seats that they would surely be squabbling internally over? Highly unlikely, me thinks.
But if the moon is made of cheese after all, I’ll round up a posse of cheese-lovers to lobby hard for the third force during the next GE. 🙂
Oh, for the rule of the land to be Veritas, Honor, Justitia, Sapientia, Scientia.
drrafick
August 8, 2010
Dear Haris
Read my view at http://rights2write.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/the-third-force/ on your proposal
SW
August 8, 2010
Haris, let’s do it man while there’s still time.Contact me and the rest of like-minded rakyat who cares for our country’s future for a briefing.get together over some tea and start the ball rolling.WE should establish it as PARTI PERPADUAN NEGARA.I await your email.
drimron
August 8, 2010
haris, go to the drawing board with the pakataneers. although it is an open secret, its seems like a strategic idea to many of us here. put forward a clear argument. and as for the rest of us, send in a write-up of your argument to haris to dig into. good luck.
kittykat46
August 8, 2010
Its one of those ideas that sound good at first pass, but turn out to be awful when examined deeper.
At this point in the country’s political development a slew of “3rd force” candidates contesting against BN and Pakatan Rakyat is a guarantee for BN to win back its 2/3 majority, and almost all the States.
The “UMNO/BN Forever” crowd probably still makes up a very large minority in the electorate. So splitting the non-BN support is a guarantee for UMNO/BN to come back with a vengeance – a clean sweep , I expect.
Dr. Pang HC
August 8, 2010
The only way to kick out bloody Barisan Najis is to have two-way fights in all constituencies.
No independent candidates.
Only PR versus Barisan Najis.
malaysian
August 9, 2010
Are you guys for real? A 3rd force will split the votes and with BN’s gerrymendering, we can easily guess who will be the winner and the losers will be the rakyat and the opposition. Besides, does the 3rd Force have the funds to run the distance during the GE13? Where does the funds come from? Umno? And who can guarantee the 3rd Force MPs will not disappear and reappear with Umno as ‘BN friendly’ MPs???
BaronV
August 9, 2010
I have always felt that true independants were likely the best candidates to vote for. Whether or not you agree with them and their political beliefs and ideologies is seperate, but at least you can believe that he or she genuinely cares about issues and that is why they are in politics. Also no worries of towing the party line or compromising on ideals for party unity or what not.
Of course there are always the exception like Ibrahim Al-Kataki, but lets face it he was never really independant was he?
So to answer your question – yes. Absolutely. An alliance of like minded independant souls that can in general be allied to PR while maintaining their full independence and conciance (spelling?) would be truly ideal. There ought to maybe be a general consensus of what symbols people who are part of this independent alliance might use so that people can easily identify them
salim
August 9, 2010
Many people seem to believe that independent candidates are more reliable and trustworthy than party candidates. The reason for this is precisely because up to now, voters have been wise enough NOT TO VOTE for independent candidates. This has prevented crooks and pro-BN candidates from masquerading as independent candidates to exploit the situation for their selfish interests. You would have noticed many such “independent” candidates standing in the by-elections just to split the vote along racial lines.
No doubt, some might think that good character, hard work, sincerity etc. are enough to win elections and work successfully towards a new Malaysia. You better THINK AGAIN!! When the state apparatus and BN money are campaigning against you, it gets real dirty and your cleanliness will not be able to counter their tactics. With 3 or 4 or 5 corner fights who do you think has the advantage? Second, don’t underestimate the importance of party ideology and party discipline. You can’t just throw in a group of good people and expect them to work together smoothly to implement programmes. Their background experiences being different, and with no common ideology or party discipline to guide and restrain them,in no time they would be quarreling among one another despite their good intentions.
Philip Chong
August 9, 2010
we need to form 3rd force council, to elect the right candidates to stand for election. My suggestion is this, work with current opposition parties, and see which area they are weak and we replace them there. If we won, we form next government with them.
Lumine Lucem
August 9, 2010
You are expecting the inexperienced, asking the uninformed, to vote for the untested, in an unfunded contest, without a coordinated message.
Electoral realities: In a first-past-the-post or winner takes all system, an additional candidate standing in a two way fight between BN and PR is likely to take more votes off PR than BN. That will lessen the chances of a PR candidate. Unless you play to race politics, by putting up candidates according to the racial composition of the constituency. This is undesirable and against our principles.
Organisational realities: with no party structure, no funding, no grassroots activists, should point to a lost cause from the beginning.
Personality politics: it may be possible to champion say 12 high profile candidates who will come across as credible and can overcome the above two problems and perhaps even win a seat. But this will be on the basis of personality politics. Such an individual would not be accountable to anyone, at least until the next election. They may be mavericks who by word or deed may damage wider participatory democracy.
Effectiveness in office: if elected the effectiveness of such a loose grouping of individuals will be dependent on cooperating with opposition parties. When PR itself is so poor at coordination and strategy, I doubt that independents would lead to a structural or culture change.
Augment or argument? You cannot augment the opposition in the legislature without contesting and winning seats. It is highly unlikely that any of the opposition parties will give way and not contest even where there is a strong local candidate. That’s the nature of party politics, especially in Malaysia. Your argument for better candidates can only be achieved from within the existing party structures.
Conclusion: It is said “People get the governments they deserve”. Do Malaysians deserve better? If so, we a culture change in the rakyat that you have long been advocating. A change that sees people willing to be better informed, becoming more active and responsible as citizens and finally, turning up to vote.
What is to be done? For all that, I see that the underlying idea has considerable merit. The merit lies not in expecting civil society activists to run for office. Rather it is to provide a political space to form a People’s Parliament – an alternative forum that performs a scrutiny function on behalf of the rakyat. Not a blog, not an issue specific campaign, not race or party based. But a chance for a group of activists to come together to do the following :
• identify the issues of concern – or ‘What is the problem?’
• scrutinise the solutions suggested by the national and state governments – or ‘What is our Government doing about this?’
• discuss and debate – or ‘Will this solve the problem?’
• make recommendations – ‘What is our alternative?’
Discussions should be at a higher level, not about every individual decision and should inform policy making. The following themes come to mind: Democracy, Rule of Law, Society, Economy.
The benefits of such an approach is to create a new forum where activists who think in terms of ‘opposition’ can also start to express themselves in terms of ‘government’. It does not preclude the possibility of some of the activists seeking election. Political parties may even take heed of what is being said, if recommendations are serious and thought through. Considered views will augment internal discussions within the opposition parties. By making such a forum a ‘standing conference’ a culture of political debate and discourse can become more normalised.
Bro Haris, I don’t have to tell you that electoral politics is only a part of democracy. Perhaps even a small part. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize!
Philip Chong
August 9, 2010
PSM also says lightly to go for 3 corner fight.
My2cen
August 9, 2010
Haris,
Looking at what’s happening now, the above scenario will likely to happen come next GE if it’s left to the career politicians, whichever party they come from! Politicians enter politics to clamour for contracts. The Pakatan members, esp ex-UMNO/BN, all look forward to some money spinning activities when they are in power, after ‘serving the party loyally!’. I can envisage a pond full of kataks come the next election, so I fully support this idea of fieding non-politicians, notable citizens of this country who have had enough of the corrupt regime and who are making themselves available to re-build this country.
1. I think it’s better to run as a group of independents aligned to the Rakyat, rather than joining the current avaiable parties. Many friends have said that we should join PKR, as they are weak and they need good people. But I beg to differ. PKR is almost as corrupt as UMNO. They are run by a group of warlords who served Anwar when they broke-off from UMNO, hence good people are side-lined as they need to keep the seats for their supporters. Too much internal politics, too many fractions, and Anwar, while being a good orator, is a very poor Manager. Both DAP and PAS also have 2 fractions, young turks vs old guards in DAP and Unity gang vs Erdogan group in PAS. Too distracting for those who join to serve, so best to run as independents.
2. Having said that, it’s going to be difficult to build-up an entire election machinery (& funding), and even more difficult, to negotiate for seats with current Pakatan leaders. If there are enough volunteers to contribute their expertise, it can still be done, if we start now. But the reality is saying ‘yes’ on the blog vs spending time to help is very different. So, we’ll still need to co-operate with the Pakatan people no matter what. They have the expertise in each area, with voters list, supporter base etc.
3. The most crucial question is, are the warlords willing to give up some seats for the independents to contest in order to win the election and govern at the federal level? Can you, RPK and others convince them?? Logically and looking at how they are doing, it should be a No-brainer. Hey, they even lose an entire state! But warlord mentality is very different, it’s always holding on and hanging on.. So, we need to convince them on the bigger plans. They can hold onto the states, as they have shown that they can win in some areas, but allocate some parliamentary seats to the independents that you can help win. When they rule the states, they hardly have time for parliament matters. So they can pass the job to the independents. The best is concentrate in urban seats where you are already known, and where the voters understand about the National issues. Don’t take up some Hulu seats (remember Zaid?)
I am wondering if eventually we’ll still need to form some sort of party instead of just Independents where professional, non-career politicians can come together and run in a more-cohesive manner. These people may just want to serve one or 2 terms during their sebaticcal/after their retirement from their profession as some sort of National Service. I know they are good people out here, but they will ‘die’ if they are to join any political parties!
Just my 2 cens worth!
romerz
August 9, 2010
Bad idea Haris ….. Sorry.
Will try to expand tomorrow when I have more time to respond but for now please just accept it that many ordinary Malaysians (who do not read your blog or alternative media) cannot comprehend where you are coming from let alone consider a 3rd force when even simple choices between two confuses them!
Bro, I feel your frustrations too but what to do when we can’t even speak with one voice, frustrated urbans vs uninformed rural, both oppressed!
If I may, let us go back to the simple basics of putting REAL information back to the public and let them make their respective choices without worrying how the outcome after the 13th GE would be.
That should be our main worry and not how PR is handling its affairs! Imperfect as they may be, they have the same objectives as we have and should be supported (for now) UNTIL we have an entrenched 2-party system which will allow for the participation of a better third choice.
Not now please and especially from you Haris who is highly respected. Please don’t make the MUD murkier,
Joey
August 9, 2010
I do agree as regards to the third force but the forces should be based on alternative policies but strictly on democratic and fairness ideologies.
I am not a clairvoyant but could sense this is what I think will happen to our political landscape in the next decade.
1st stage – evolution process
Though PR component parties have signed up to Common Platform which is based on fairness and justice, the tough boundary was yet to be set and need to be carefully crafted prior to election without damaging the years of forging strong alliance. The boundary is about strictly deterring elected politicians from crossing from PR and joining any external parties (BN) or even being independent as a matter. The PR politicians will have to toe the pact line or will lose their seat.
1) This will stop the buying culture of BN and turmoil that is likely to take place immediately after the election. BN will try to hold on power resorting to emergency measure but mass public demonstrations would eventually push BN out. Then don`t imagine BN will bounce back that soon when most of the wanted list would likely to face music in the new fairness justice system. BN possibly have to pack up and run or rot in jail. It will take a while before BN regroup with much more purpose to involve in a decent politic.
2) Also, this will stop the PR independents that is going to be friendly here and there which I don`t think should work that soon for our country. I am not a fan of independents to disrupt the evolution process that soon. In the long run, the independents will and should mushroom out or championed the micro targeted perspective.
The tough boundary suggested for PR does not sound fair but should just work as a temporary measure for the upcoming election and should be discarded for the following election probably in 2018. We don`t want to end up with ISA saga again, passing the shelf life. Most probably it will discard itself naturally since the constitution will need to be amended to include local elections etc.
However, within the tough parameter, PR politicians should be allowed to switch within the parties in the PR pact based on POLICY DIFFERENCES within the basic full fairness principles.
I have highlighted POLICY in bold cos` this is what I think the next stage of transformation process to happen.
2nd stage – Transformation Process
PKR, DAP and PAS are the 3 major forces that I think would compete each other for years to come based on POLICY differences and not on jungle BN or PERKASA ideologies.
In the process, PAS may have to rebrand itself to be a force to reckon with left to center policies. DAP on right to center or PKR or any other small parties to position itself anywhere within the long rope of policy alternatives. There is one condition though, the political maturity should preserve since being in alliance and not tugs.
In summary, PR will need to break up in the near future for a progressive nation that I am dreaming of where the population knowledge and views can be strengthen.
In fact, I think we will be very much in tune with Westminster practices where the tories are primarily seen as right to center and labour to the left to center. Others i.e. BNP and SNP are on extreme right.
I don`t use democracy anywhere in my text cos` don`t think anyone really practice true democracy. I leave it as fairness and justice.
I may have miss some finer details with the points I made since my knowledge of Malaysian politics still at infant stage and it is therefore not the proof of the pudding or rojak.
Malaysian
August 9, 2010
I guess your 3rd force still have to work with Pakatan for an electoral pact right? The question is will PR be willing to give you some seats, unless it’s those seats that are almost impossible for them to win?
If you can win those difficult seats then I say by all means. But eventually you would still be PR friendly, albeit not blindly friendly, rather than BN friendly since you are called DNBN, right?
I would say let’s help PR bring down BN first then start the 3rd force. It wouldn’t be difficult to bring down PR if they are elected and out of line.
Okey
August 9, 2010
I guess your 3rd force still have to work with Pakatan for an electoral pact right? The question is will PR be willing to give you some seats, unless it’s those seats that are almost impossible for them to win?
Maybe you should start with those seats that nobody wants and considered “sure lose”. That way you can ensure that PR chances won’t be compromised while at the same time gain experience though you lost.
If you can win those difficult seat
s then I say by all means. But eventually you would still be PR friendly, albeit not blindly friendly, rather than BN friendly since you are called DNBN, right?
I would say let’s help PR bring down BN first then start the 3rd force. It wouldn’t be difficult to bring down PR if they are elected and out of line.
temenggong
August 9, 2010
There is already a Third Force. It is CigMa-Hindraf. They are firm in contesting 15 seats in Malaya and 20-25 seats in Sabah and Sarawak, even if it means splitting the opposition votes. So pissed of they are with Pakatan. The seats have been identified and the money is ready, and house to house campaigning has started! They will play the role that the Liberals play in Britain.
Now yours would be the Fourth Force.
Philip Chong
August 9, 2010
I think Hindraf leaders are very sentimental, and failed to represent all races. We pissed of with BN, but Hindraf pissed of with Pakatan. Mind you Pakatan State Government only 21/2 years old, yet you don’t give them chance. The 1 hurt you for for ages, yet you don’t feel hurt by them? Funny
I think those Hindraf leaders who are came out from ISA has been brain wash by BN not to hate BN but to hate Pakatan. Funny Funny! That’s is why I said Hindraf leaders are sentimentals and we RAKYAT do not a sentimentals leaders but we need a firm leaders, so what if you tell you are Lawyer?
tan pek leng
August 9, 2010
independent candidates used to be a very viable option in the country before money politics took its toll. definitely should be revived. if PR have any sense, they should support this and give support to creditable civil society candidates in their campaigns. but such candidates must pledge that they will resign if they switch allegiance to BN after being elected.
shakuntala
August 9, 2010
Faint heart n’er won…fair lady,goes the saying. So why not give it a try, as the general concensus is for a Third Force.
Wow! sounds formidable, awesome and….forceful.
But, it would be serious business. The exercise calls for men who would act as a band of brothers, who would know all about good governance…not men who would easily be carried away by the idea of being the future ‘conquerors’.
It calls for men and women (musn’t forget!)of respect in the country, persons of good sense and deep committment, persons who are honest, who DO NOT have the urge to be infallible corruptors…by mis-using the Consitution.
It is an awesome challenge. Do we have such persons?
Anyway, to start with, most of us know two good men and true,
Who we can count on, to hoist the flag and lead us through!
My choice goes to…….Haris Ibrahim, Jayanath Appudurai..plus, plus RPK and other true blue Malaysians who have incessantly and not without a certain amount of pain, talked incessantly of liberty, equality and fraternity for ALL Malaysians.
Philip Chong
August 9, 2010
BN likely will sponsor 3rd force to fight for the seat, even they are in.
Malaysian
August 9, 2010
The 3rd force would still have to be coordinated by a committee or something rather than just a few independents.
Let’s have a win-win situation. 3rd force candidates only contest in hopeless seats where no PR people wants to go. That way PR can concentrate their resources on other winnable seats while you guys work on the “unwinnable” seats.
Hey, who knows miracles can happen and that would really put you guys in a solid position to negotiate.
Ultimately the most important thing now is not to split PR votes and compromise their chances. We need to put in place a 2 party system first.
Sorry I’m repeating some of the things I said earlier.Must be getting old!
Bobby
August 9, 2010
There are more than sufficient good people to serve as MPs. The only question is whether they will be fielded.
I believe there will be a record number of independent candidates for the 13th GE.
This will add to BN’s dilemma as to whether to buy them off in order to boost their odds of winning.
On the other hand, they will also affect PR’s candidates.
Whatever it is, the people are now smarter and with eyes open, they will be choosing a candidate of better quality, except for rural areas.
Lawyer
August 9, 2010
Reasonable call but wishful thinking.
The third force needs a leader, a credible one too. Then they need to sell their ‘products’. They need money.
I would prefer Pakatan invite them to contest under any of the Pakatan parties’ banner.
Try considering Ramon Navaretnam, Dr Lim,Tengku Razaleigh and your goodself.
JJx
August 9, 2010
Harris,
Whether PR or that 3rd force of yours, once cash (lots of it) are put on the table, they will also jump.
In summary, we are screwed.
Jong
August 9, 2010
Hahaha! ..even wheelchair bound eh? 😀
sunwayopal
August 9, 2010
Your 3rd force idea will decimate Pakatan and almost guarantee a return to power of Barisan Najis with 2/3rds majority and winning back all their states they lost.
You are threading on very thin ice here with this suggestion.
http://www.myrealestate.com.my
cruzeiro
August 9, 2010
Haris,
I think you better cool it, and focus on the two party system first. Don’t get side-tracked by “growing-pains/teething problems”, mate!!
Malaysians are generally quite politically ignorant la … they don’t even know their rights, and worship the political “orang besars”. They’ll never understand the purpose of a “3rd force” – and you don’t have the means to challenge the big guns in propaganda.
Let’s work with what we have for now – the time for that hasn’t come as yet …
Keep the fire burning, though – and educate the public first, liberate the media, watch the authorities, defend the innocent, expose the corrupt!!
Good luck on the “third force” anyways ….
Cheers, mate!
talisman
August 9, 2010
A 3rd force is only understood in the cities and urban areas.The majority who follows the politics of the day are hell bent to throw the dirty Bingong Nuts out once and for all.
To start a 3rd force now is not going to do Malaysians any good. In fact, we are putting one more gang in the neibourhood.
With two strong gangs and one more gang armed only with a head and no muscle, the ultimate scenario shall be raising the price for support to a new level; though not necessarily the wealth of the world.
Please do not forget : ” EVERY MAN HAS A PRICE”.
sampalee
August 9, 2010
Yes leadership is important.Just look at bn and pr now.It is shit house with one or two exception like Tok Guru and Kuli.One thing the third force is NOT lacking and that is capable and sincere leaders.
philip Chong
August 9, 2010
Let’s call for a forum
johan tung
August 9, 2010
Dear Tuan ,
Assalamualikum .
I made this same proposal about 9 months back to all
and any that would listen , and I got whacked as being ” anti PR ” or ‘ pro BN ” . I am neither .
I am pro electrorate .. for a better deserved deal
for electorate & rate payers .
My humble suggestion of a third force was not for Parliament , but for State seats.
I opined that the Selangor ADUNs , especially the ones in PJ have failed the electorate in :
* not reducing the 10% increase in Cukai Taksiran
that was raised in 2006 by the then BN State
Govt.
(The MBPJ have reserves of RM191 MILLION
and the excuses given by the State Exco of
other Municipalities being possibly insolvent
due to reduction does not hold water as we are
asking for the reduction of only MBPJ . The
others did NOT have the increase in 2006 )
* the pathethic delays and selection process of
Councillors also give rise to ” political
patronage ‘ which have led to poor deliberation
and debate of last 2 years MBPJ budgets .
I am beginning to see that the politicians from both sides of the divide are the same… they will only pay heed to the citizens’ concerns if the latter come from a position of strength . Otherwise
they will just label you as ” anti ” this , or “anti- that ” just so to brush your concerns aside and continue to do things they claim they know best ( sounds familiar to BN of pre 2008 ?? ).
I am advocating that a Third force be the King makers for State( Selangor ) control , and to
pressure for delivery of the following :
a. Municipality elections ( if not a Legal one ,
at least a ” tactical ” one whereby bypassing
the Elections Comm.’s involvement ).
This was a a Pakatan manifesto in March 2008.
b. Reduction in MBPJ Cukai taksiran ( another
promise of reduction of ” taxes ” by Pakatan
in March 2008 )
c. leasehold titles . The State should announce a
major reduction ( say, to 01.25% )in the
rate for extensions of leases to 99 years .
Better still , look into allowing the
revision of leasehold status to FREEHOLD
status for many areas in established
residentail areas of PJ/Selangor for a
nominal fee.
Many folks I speak to are totally disillusioned by the actions/inactions of the Selangor PR ADUN’s & MP’s , and they now say that they would rather not cast their votes as they do not see any candidates worthy of their support .
I support the motion to vote for a Third Voice / Force . This Third Voice will not win the State , but hopefully that with 1 – 5 seats won by Third Force , PR politicians will take their heads out from the hole in the ground and face the realities of their folly in behaving like BN ( pre 2008 )in
taking the electorate for granted .
Then to perhaps address of ” Third Force ” candidates jumping like frogs , there can be legally binding ” contracts ” that they pay
mammoth sums ( say , RM20-25 million ) to EACH other
in event that they ” break ranks ” from a prior decided line of action /allegiance .
Sure the above may present some short commings , but it sure is better than to be short changed
by politicians AGAIN , but this time wearing different political badges .
At least the Third Force will present a chance for benefits of the electorate / rate payers to be realised .
Almost along the lines of the workings
( tho’ not same objectives ) of the Greenparty in many other countries .
Thanks .
“jtba”
splim
August 9, 2010
Idealistic. Let’s work towards a 2 party system first.
Parli-Man
August 9, 2010
Dear Haris,
Would PR accept HRP ? I strongly believe they can’t be bought.
hurricaneMax
August 10, 2010
SOKONG! With almost ALL BN politicians being corrupted to the core, PK politicians either aping their opponents and those not, are now frogging as BN-friendlies, What more can we lose?
I’d even vote for a polka dotted Orang Utang as my MP/leader! At least I know it only feeds on fruits and won’t steal Ca$h from the rakyak’s coffer.
Since we have been screwed for so long, whats wrong now to be screwed by a hairy animal…heck! we might just enjoy the change for once!
Mr. Mickey
October 11, 2010
While you are living on your cloud nine believing in your daydream, we working stiffs in Malaysia have to face the cruel reality every single day, Haris.
Stop treating us like dummies.
What you said above, Haris, do not make any single iota of sense in the real world.