I posted this here on 23rd April, 2008. I am reproducing that post here as a timely reminder to PAS and ourselves.
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Well, PAS thinks we do.
And if PAS had its way, we’d be an ‘Islamic State’ today.
Whatever ‘Islamic State’ means.
Hope PAS knows because I haven’t a clue although, looking around at the goings-on in some nation states that would have us believe they are ‘Islamic States’ sends a chill right down the spine!
And its fair to assume that at some point, PAS will want to share with the rest of us their grand plan for this ‘Islamic State’, going by what YB Dr Zulkifly Ahmad said at a talk bearing the same title as this post last Sunday in KL and as reported in the Star.
I quote Dr Zul :
‘We are not pulling it (setting up of an Islamic state) back. It is still an issue that matters to us but we are allowing more time for the electorate to understand us better. The more important agenda now is reinstating democracy and good governance’
PAS is allowing more time for the electorate, you and I, to understand them better before they…
So they dropped ‘Islamic State’ from their 2008 election manifesto.
And they endorsed our People’s Declaration.
And they are now part of Pakatan Rakyat.
So what?
Not for one moment in the run up to the last elections and thereafter have I deluded myself that PAS has abandoned its aspiration to establish an ‘Islamic State’.
Dr Zul’s statement as quoted above, as such, came as no surprise to me.
Another statement, though, left me wondering if the good doctor is himself deluded about how and why PAS did so well with the non-Muslim voters this time round. Will return to this shortly.
In truth, PAS’s stance of not pushing their ‘Islamic State’ agenda to the fore at this time and the stance of many of us who, whilst wary of their ‘Islamic State’, gave PAS our vote, are both instances of pragmatic politics.
Calculated, pragmatic politics.
Just as DAP, PAS and PKR forging Pakatan Rakyat is pragmatic politics.
If PAS cannot expect those of us who aspire to retain the secular state established under the Federal Constitution to give up just because we gave them our vote this time round, can anyone fairly expect PAS to abandon its ‘Islamic State’ agenda just because they are now part of the Pakatan?
Well, YB Karpal Singh does!
Malaysiakini reports that, responding to Dr Zul, Karpal said :
‘It is incongruous for PAS to insist on having on its agenda (the) Islamic state and at the same time work with the other two parties in the Pakatan Rakyat…PAS should give an assurance that its leaders, including Kelantan Mentri Besar Nik Aziz Nik Mat and PAS president (Abdul) Hadi Awang will not publicly clamour in turning Malaysia into an Islamic state’
Why is it incongruous?
Why might it not be possible for the 3 parties, with whatever ideological differences that prevail between them, to nonetheless work together on, to quote Dr Zul, ’reinstating democracy and good governance’.
Why should PAS leaders not publicly clamour about their ‘Islamic State’ agenda?
I want them to clamour. I want them to come clean about what their ‘Islamic State’ agenda entails. And I want them to answer all our questions about their ‘Islamic State’.
All questions, from Muslims and non-Muslims.
And not dodge or duck the questions, as did Dr Zul on Sunday, when I asked whether in PAS’s ‘Islamic State’, would I be permitted to articulate my views on Islam notwithstanding they differ with PAS’s, or would I be silenced?
Yes, Dr Zul, I look forward to PAS’s attempts to get us to understand your party.
Dr Zul’s other statement on sunday in fact makes it plain that PAS desperately needs to understand why the vote swung their way on 8th March.
He went on quite a bit about how the election results reflected that many non-Muslims were now less uncomfortable and were feeling more at ease with PAS, given that they were more savvy in their approach to the 12th GE, leaving out the ‘Islamic State’ agenda and all.
Dr Zul, let me make this as plain as I can.
In the 12th GE, PAS were the benefactors of calculated, pragmatic politics on the part of a great many voters, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.
These voters gave you the mandate, not because they found your ideology and your shelved but unabandoned ‘Islamic State’ agenda appealing, but because they were determined to be rid of BN and its race-based, divide and rule politics, at a cost well calculated.
We knew you would not form the federal government on your own. We knew that if we succeeded in removing the BN regime, we would not be entrenching your ‘Islamic State’.
We are a long way from being comfortable and at ease with the politics of PAS.
Ignore these truths at your own peril.
Who needs an ‘Islamic State’?
Well from all that I’ve seen, both home and away, not me, thank you, no!
I’d rather keep my private space to find my own state of Islam.
The People's Parliament 
For Truth
September 25, 2011
What can I say. After all, they are all politicians and for their own selfish reasons they gonna let Barisan Nasional rule for a very long time. Pakatan Rakyat has just dashed hopes of millions. This is really disappointing. I wish I can see someone who fights for nothing but truth. But it is futile dream, i guess.
Paul Warren
September 25, 2011
Actually I am prepared for Dr Zul or anyone to try and explain to me why I should support PAS’ aspirations to wanting Sharia and Islamic Laws for all of us if he will give me equal time to explain to him my aspirations to making this country a secular one with no religion given any predominance and that religion should remain a personal thing and outside the ambit of government altogether.
yoongsin2
September 25, 2011
with these pas insisting hudud laws and determining to set up their version of islamic state. this is not my idea of voting them and taking any risks! it could be madness in chaos once they come in power. better deal with umno the devil we know then dipping into this big blue oceans. we get drown. it futile to try to change them anyway.
Tarrrrrr
September 25, 2011
Hudud implementation will bring a lot problems, Nik Aziz says that the current law is more cruel but he forgot to mention that .. Hudud punish even close proximity, and Adultery. Other than that, Hudud will cause rift between the nonmalays and the malays during implementation as the nonmalays will subject to hudud law if they have issue with a muslim (malay). Hudud law will applies and the conventional Court will not be able to do anything about it as… much as problem we have with the current Sharia Law.
We will start to see a lot of people who will be without their hand… something more cruel than what PAS said is cruel system..
On a side note, why do you think so many Iranian murtads flew to malaysia?
Haris Ibrahim
September 25, 2011
It will also cause a rift between the various groups of people who profess Islam, but have varied understanding and interpretations of the faith.
Tarrrrrr
September 25, 2011
Let me be honest with you, I am a muslim, but my interpretation of Islam is according to what I have learnt during my stay in Germany. I had so much research and read lots about it during study. I am still a practising muslim, never drink or whatever, but mine differ from the mainstream sunni muslim.. so if PAS implemented this one,there is a serious danger of being silenced completely because PAS regard that words an God’s authority should never be questioned., referrences.. the Caliph of Islamic World.. they silenced those who go against them after the death of the Prophet Muhammad.
Haris Ibrahim
September 25, 2011
Brother,
You and I, like many others,are in the same boat.
Muslims must speak up
Tarrrrrr
September 25, 2011
Another big issue that will surface is that, as a lawyer do we have to re-study the law again?!?
visu
September 25, 2011
I think many are getting worried with Tok Guru’s Sharia Law statement. I believe that PAS is playing politics trying to ensnare the wily UMNO. Unfortunately PAS should remember that playing in a not so level playing field that favours UMNO, is going to be futile and detrimental. With UMNO controlling the MSM, Police, MACC, AG Chambers etc, it is impossible for PAS to derive even an inch of benefit from the Hudud issue. PAS should leave the issue of Islamic state to rest as they have now gone into the secularist den. Any form of usurping the secularist den would only bring greater damage to PAS’s image and credibility. If at all PAS wants to still pursue its ISlamist agenda so be it but be honorable in the name of Islam and leave Pakatan. Give us voters a respite so that we can vote without too much complication. We want UMNO out but to breed another “UMNO” under our skin is very worrying.
Jong
September 25, 2011
We don’t need more hypocrisy!
About time religion be separated from politics. You want to preach religion, stick to humility, compassion, goodness, honesty and stay in the mosques, not politics. Please don’t hide behind religion and use it to control lives and instill fear on civil society.
We are living in the electronic age of 21st century; people today demands equality under the law and reject any attempt to be kept in ignorance; we demand our entitlements, rights to freedom of uncensored information, opinion and expression and without fear of oppression.
Looks like PAS is having credibility issues as well? …so is Anwar’s, is he that desperate?
I thought events in the Middle-east – Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia and Libya should have taught our politicians some lessons, no?
Foo
September 25, 2011
Haris,
We have NEVER given PAS a blank cheque and this I think PAS must keep this in mind ALL THE TIME!
Jong
September 25, 2011
Foo, well said!
mokhtar
September 25, 2011
Can hudud laws be implemented only on muslims as certain Pas leader is trying to convince the non muslims. Can anyone tell me…..in cases where hudud offences e.g murder, theft, robbery or rape are committed jointly by muslims and non muslims….where will they be judged? Syariah courts…civil courts? Or in case these offences are commited on muslims by non muslims or vice versa…..which courts have the appropriate jurisdiction?
vsp
September 25, 2011
PAS’s heavy baggage of hudud will always divide the Opposition. PAS has invested so much in this ideology that it is difficult to wean itself out of it. BN has always successfully take the wind out of PAS’s sail by putting the red flag in front of the raging bull. This has always been the recipe whereby UMNO succeeds to distract PAS. Yet time and time again PAS went into the trap and got slaughtered. When will PAS ever learn?
I understand that PAS does have hudud law in Kelantan but it did not bite because the Federal government blocked its implementation. In Trengganu, PAS’s attempt to foist hudud on the people caused it to lose the state government. Yes, even the Malay populace is afraid of hudud. So why does PAS’ leadership not get it in its thick skull that hudud is not practical in this multiracial or even Islamic countries? Hudud is just a political football played by UMNO and PAS to fool the ignorant populace in order to grab power.
Can’t PAS understands that hudud is a law that was conceived in the dark age where life was more simpler? To apply hudud in this modern times would be sheer lunacy. Crime committed in this modern age is way more sophisticated of the first magnitude. Stealing in the dark ages take the form of physically attacked the victim and then relieved him of his money. But in this modern times, white-collar crime is one hundred times more effective than using knives or pistols. To rob a bank does not necessarily hoisting out the ATM by crane, or rushing into the bank’s premises with gun and pistols aiming at the cashiers’ head, or digging a tunnel or drilling a hole through the walls of the bank’s vault during long holidays. It does happen but very rare. Nowadays 90% of robberies are done through white-collar crime. A robber now is very sophisticated, well-educated, well-dressed, an insider well-versed with the layout of the bank and having the cooperation of higher-ups. People lose money not through traditional thieves but by modern hackers through phishing on the internet or having their password stolen. Banks and insurance companies cheat people and cause the economy to tank. Politicians collude with third-parties to corrupt the whole system of governance. I am giving an example of one common crime only: stealing; but there are other crimes like murder through contract killing, etc. that would confound an obsolete law to check them. Does hudud be able to detect the sophistication of crime?
Even in the Middle East where Islamic laws reign supreme, corruption and other lawless behavior among the elites are rife. Witness the Arab spring: the people rise because of blatant corruption and abuse of power.
Hudud is potent power and putting it in the hands of religious fascists and power-hunger UMNO racists is recipe for failure for a modern state. I advise PAS to just get rid of its heavy baggage and save itself from irrelevancy. Hudud won’t work because it is barbaric and easily being held hostage by power-hungry politicians and self-edifying, God-pretend religious fascists.
shakuntala
September 25, 2011
A lot of Muslims seem to be afraid to be definitely against an islamic state, for fear of getting ostrasized. Haris is showing extraordinary courage in rejecting an islamic state.
Can you have such repressive laws in a democracy? In advocating different laws for Muslims are you not creating a new religionism, which is in effect ….RACISM.
These so called “followers” want to remain in their ‘own religious camp” so to speak, including AI who has in a way ,betrayed all those who have stood by him when he was/is being shamelessly reviled by this very gang of islamists.
Wake up, these are enormously modern times, our children have minds of their own, You cannot desire to send your child abroad, to non-islamic countries.
.
tbh
September 25, 2011
Haris, my beef is this:
why can’t PAS respect others – eg if a concert is disagreeable to them, just advise muslims not to attend, get police or fru help and station themselves at entrances of such concerts for all i care – but DO NOT DENY others who want to watch the concert.
Similarly, if you are not allowed to drink or buy lottery, DO NOT BAN sales of such. There are those who want to enjoy a drink or two and I may want a chance to “stike” it rich.
Keep your believes to yourself and your fellow believers!
SpeakUp
September 25, 2011
I met up with Khalid Samad and Dr Dzul about the whole concert issue with PAS Youth. They call themselves PROGRESSIVE MUSLIMS, I call them HYPOCRITES!
Dr Dzul says we need ‘common morals’, that is his dirty way to bring in his Islamic values. He cannot see the difference between Adam Lambert, who is gay, coming to Malaysia to perform a show in accordance with our laws and some gay man coming to Malaysia to promote gay lifestyle. He cannot see the difference. Basically, he feels as long as you are gay, you are a sinner and you should not perform. That is what I perceive, he did not use those words.
As for Khalid Samad, when I met him, he says PAS Youth needs to respect a multi-racial society, he says he cannot understand why PAS Youth does it BUT he was kinda leading the protest against MTV World Stage.
PAS member of the council stated MTV World Stage allows:
i. Gender interaction
ii. potential for gambling
How the hell does gambling come into play? Gender interaction? Why? Just because of a concert kids will start to hump in public? Or is it holding hands is a sin?
Tell me now, if we cannot expect these 2 to be the new PAS then what do we really have? Its all politics, be it BN or PR. All HYPOCRITES. Scums of the Earth! I say gas all politicians.
Serious Shepherd
September 25, 2011
If MTV World Stage is Chinese, Iban or at least Serani’s culture, Khalid Samad would definitely changed his mind and backed off from protesting the event.
vsp
September 25, 2011
Will hudud be only applicable to Muslims? This is what the sponsors of hudud would like the non-Muslim to believe. If hudud were only to be applicable to Muslims, then we would see many Muslims with no hands and feet. Crime is no respecter of religious inclination. Some Muslims, some Christians or some atheists will always commit crimes no matter what laws, religious or secular, are in place. If non-Muslims who commit crime are beyond the ambit of hudud, Muslims would be very agitated to see many of their fellow Muslims being one-arm jacks or hopping kangaroos, and would demand that hudud be uniformly applied. So for some enterprising Muslims who want to commit corruption and to escape from their hands or feet being chopped off, they can just outsource the job to a non-Muslim. If the non-Muslim is not caught he can share the loot with his Muslim colluder; but if he is caught he would not have his hands chopped off. Expect hudud to be another cause of injustice: same crime being committed but applied differently based on the color of religion. So don’t be naive that hudud would not be applied on non-Muslims.
Hudud in itself is harmless, but put it in the hands of a religious fascist, hudud is potent power, and those who has control of this power can do a lot of damage. Hudud can be abused for one’s personal reason. It can be used to harass enemies and also to protect the corrupt. So what’s to prevent those who has this power to behave as though they are gods themselves. Be careful what you ask for.
Even Jesus and Prophet Muhammad would not trust the religious authorities of their times to assume such powers to behave like God. Jesus criticized the Pharisees and he was hung on the cross. Prophet Muhammad criticized the religious authorities and they wanted his head and he was forced to flee to Medina.
The religious authorities in Malaysia behaved as though they are greater than God himself. They peep into people’s bedrooms; they snatch dead bodies from grieving families; they hold children hostage from heart-breaking mothers or fathers; they treat women like harlots; they ban the name of God to others; they issue fatwas at their own whim and fancy that Allah himself does not approved; they assume that they own God or Allah’s name and locked Him out of reaching out to others; they made Allah an unapproachable God and that he is a cruel tyrant and has no compassion and understanding about mercy and love.
This is how absolute powers would make a human to be intolerant, corrupt and cruel, whether he be a religious figure or a secular one.
bigjoe99
September 25, 2011
Well said. I agree in fact it should be a rule that in any debate on this, whoever tells the other person to shut up first or uses violence first, loses.
concerned malaysian
September 25, 2011
Malaysia was a secular country once upon a time. But through the years, the fear has been instilled in us, the perception of what good muslims should be and any deviation will lead to condemnation not by God, but by your fellow muslims. The progression of islamic conservatism has been propagated by the ruling party purely to create division. Laws are already present to distinguish between right and wrong. Hudud laws should never be imposed onto the citizens of Malaysia. Malaysia was born a multiracial and multi religion country. So why should one race or one religion be able to impose their practices onto other? Having additional laws will not prevent or deter the perpetrator! Sodomy is already illegal but it still happens.
wandererAUS
September 25, 2011
Malaysia under UMNO is a fertile ground to breed hypocrisy and religious pretenders.
PAS must and should compromise its position to be really accepted in a multi-religion societies like ours…let no kid ourselves,compromise or doomed!.
soon
September 25, 2011
There is no doubt that the opposition’s improved support in the last GE was derived from :-
1) ABU (Asalkan Bukan Umno); and
2) That PAS played down its ‘Islamic State’ agenda.
If PAS seriously sees itself playing a more active role in politics at the federal level, then –
a) it must play down its Islamic state agenda,
b) emphasise that it is pro-democracy and good governance,
c) emphasise its pro-rakyat, pro-welfare portfolio.
If PAS leaders are really smart, what is there to stop them from putting into practice all that is good and beautiful from the CORE values of Islam, without giving it the Islamic state label?
Drop the Islamic state label – it is burdened with an image/perception problem – tyrannical, lacking in compassion, unreceptive to the recognition of the individual’s rights and views, discrimination against the female sex, institutionalised discrimination against anything deemed non-Islamic – just to give some examples. Think Taliban abuses, segregation of sexes, abuses by the religious department, i.e. body-snatching, forced conversions of minors, dubious fatwas …
Bring Islam out of the middle ages, into the modern world today – can it be done?
Conformity vs Individual – which direction is Islam heading?
Can Islam thrive in a secular environment?
For I love my country, and my fellow brothers and sisters, more than any religion itself…
Hear! Hear!
Nizam
September 25, 2011
You guys seem to be forgetting, that when RPK ask Pas, what is more important, winning vote or spreading the word of Islam, the answer is spreading Islam. Now you guys want to hold Pas for ransom.. so stupid.. i dont mind if you want to debate with pas on what is right or wrong, i mean if they are wise they would listen to people who disagree with them.. but listen doesnt mean must follow.. everyone has an opinion, as long as it is based on knowledge.. but it is so stupid to tell pas, hey, if you do this i wont vote for you.. hey if pas actually abandon their principle to get votes, would they be anybody’s hero? no..! but if they dont listen to reason than of course they are not good leaders. they should expect some give and take, and we all also should expect some give and take.. remember that in many instances already pas had taken the less popular stance among the malays, such as the using the word Allah issue.. so truth does means something to them more than votes… it is true that there are many issues that need proper discussion, but if we dont get the people to show and thus believe in their power in this coming GE by changing the government, do you really think we will have a chance to improve.. please dont take such a hard stance on an issue which you know has different opinions.. the focus now is to remove the outright wrongs that are occurring in this country… vote BN out!
ladybird
September 25, 2011
I didn’t vote for PAS with an Islamic agenda behind its back. Religion should never be mixed with politics and for PAS to push that into our faces makes me take 5 step back and not vote for them again.
PAS should be honest enough ( going by their own Islamic principle) to come out once and for all and tell all Malaysians their agenda for the election and not make compromising statements to PAKATAN, just so to win more votes from unsuspecting voters who don’t want BN/UMNO
A.B.U
September 25, 2011
Dear Haris, Those golden days (1940s-70s) when we were seemingly lesser islamic (almost nobody worn a tudung,not many mosques blaring aloud too,no body snatching, hardly any restriction on other religious worship premises,zero doa prayers at schools,race and religion blind, our country led the whole region (yes including Spore/Brunei) as the strongest nation in economy,human resources,music,theather,sports,…..now be honest,can becoming an islamic state with so many things off-limits help to propel us ahead other than earning ourselves as an islamic country namesake only,nothing more. Sometimes i wonder why so many of us are desperately seeking to become an islamic state when they can actually practise as islamic as possible personaly and nobody will stop them.PAS has actually asked all non-muslims and muslims alike too to think again if we really want to sail the ship together for the long haul.We are now cornered to rather spoil our votes than to vote PAS as previously, since alternatively anything but umno still apply.
Pas Dreaming
September 25, 2011
Pas to insist on its agenda of an Islamic state. It is not a problem if Pas can walk to Putrajaya by itself. Can’t even convince the majority of the muslims, how to impose Hudud? Even in Kelantan, very high numbers of muslims/malays did not vote for PAS. So, how to expect non-muslims to accept Hudud. If Pas continue to insist on islamic state, then it should go on its own. Just leave Pakatan and see whether itself is a dorminant political party or a religious party. Look at the result of the Sarawak election, can’t even win a seat. Don’t only feel that Pas has lasted that long on its own, other opposition parties are also around for that long on its own. Just because there is so headway for Pakatan, Pas is trying to rock the boat. Should PR wins this GE13, it may not last for the one term with Pas insisting on islamic state instead of welfare state. Pas should realise that it can’t capture and retain Putrajaya by itself. Pas will remain the dorminant party in Kelantan only, just like Gerakan was in Penang.
suppipau
September 25, 2011
When choices are bad, voters need to be smart. Why not kick out BN by voting for PAS, then later kick out PAS?
mangchik
September 25, 2011
One is to call for a referendum , or so they say….
Be
September 25, 2011
I think GOD allegedly last spoke 14000 plus years back. Maybe its about time he should give us an update and rectify all the bugs and viruses that has entered the system.
mycuntree
September 26, 2011
I have good reasons to believe what Haris said in this post is the truth about why PAS has gained many “adherents” during the last GE. That was the exact reason I gave my vote to PAS anyway. But that “support” will disappear as fast as it came about with what PAS wants to achieve when in power.
rainbowman
September 27, 2011
I am a non-muslim. I certainly respect the wishes of muslims to implement hudud laws if that is what they want. As long as Tok guru is around, I have no fear of hudud laws for he will ensure that it will be implemented justly. However, if we look into the future, it scares me to imagine the consequences of the abuse of hudud laws. Hudud laws, being God’s laws, cannot be debated. Should powers be in the hands of lesser mortals, history is strewn with grim tales on abuse ( witchhunt, false persecution,etc).
Malaysia, being a multi-racial country, adds to the complexity of this problem. A case point would be the NEP, which was conceived from pure and noble objectives (as with hudud) to eradicate poverty among the poor. Look at what it has morped into today, abused by corrupt officials for personal gains. History has shown Murphy’s law always applies on human behaviour, i.e if it can be abused, it will be abused.
Good day. I love Malaysia.
sampalee
September 27, 2011
Only a handful wants Truth. All are being told the Truth is in the kithab of All religions.Few people now read the kithab and for those who read the kithab fewer undertand the pointers.So how on earth can politics brings about Truth as they actually OPPOSE Truth.
Haris ,you are smart and you should be single minded to promote God[aka as Truth] and not confuse readers with concept such as Democracy and Indivudual choice,when the Truth have always been Thy will be done,Inshaallah.There is only God’s will and the universe abide by this will,Full Stop.
Wake up Tuan haris and divide the people no further as GOD is wholeness as one and it has always been so.Do not give your gifted articulation to sustain ‘apparent’ seperation and Inividuality.
Haris,submission is the ONLY wise way.
Pak Yeh
September 28, 2011
It looks like the polemic around Secular and Islamic state is only about laws.!!!
But politics is about economics.!!! And Islamic politics is about Islaic econoics.!!!
Why debate about Secular or Islamic state when you should be debating on whether we should have a Capitalist,Comunist or Islamic economics.???
This corruption in our country is due to Capitalist economics.!!!
And here we are politically savy people debating on laws, which is not politics but is a tool of politics. but what is not real politics.!!!
An Islamic state without Islamic economics is just another Capitalist and Kafir State.
Read more on “PAS hudud is unIslamic” @..
http://warongpakyeh.blogspot.com/2011/09/hudud-pas-tidak-islamic.html
Read more on Islamnomics @
http://warongpakyeh.blogspot.com/2009/04/kafirnomics-vs-islamnomics.html