Petition Update at 8.59am ( Thanks for the shove, BigJoe ) : Signatures this morning stands at 5,370. If you have not as yet signed the petition, you may access the same HERE.
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This comes in several parts.
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Did the title of the forum, “Conversion to Islam: Article 121(1a) of the Federal Constitution: Subashini and Shamala Revisited“ really cause such confusion amongst our ministers, amongst the UMNO, PAS and PKR leaders, and amongst the self-proclaimed Muslim student leaders?
And if it did, did not the Bar Council adequately clarify?
Star online reports :
‘In a statement yesterday, Bar Council vice-chairman Ragunath Kesavan reiterated that their concern was to address the issues of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws.
“We recognise and respect Article 121(1A). However, there is a strong viewpoint that it is unjust to compel anyone to be subjected to laws and courts that are based on a religion that they do not profess, and this viewpoint must be addressed.
…Although open to everyone, Ragunath said they were taking the necessary precautions to ensure that the dialogue took place in a controlled and constructive manner, by holding it in a closed setting and by requiring participants to register for the event.
…”The forum is not about conversion per se, as the Bar Council endorses the absolute right of individuals to embrace Islam. Instead, the forum will address the ancillary issues that arise from such situations and will emphasise the need for laws and a judicial system that protects everyone equally,” he added’
Whilst we’re on the matter of this Star online report, I want to draw your attention to one other sentence in that report.
‘Article 121(1A) confers syariah jurisdiction over Muslims on syariah courts’
This statement, like so many others we see in the MSM, feed and stoke a gross misconception of the purport of Article 121(1A) which many are only too pleased to see continue.
And the MSM time and again obliges!
To understand what Article 121(1A) says, you would need to also have sight of the amended Article 121(1), both of which I now reproduce below :
121. Judicial power of the Federation.
(1) There shall be two High Courts of co-ordinate jurisdiction and status, namely –
(a) one in the States of Malaya, which shall be known as the High Court in Malaya and shall have its principal registry at such place in the States of Malaya as the Yang di-Pertuan Agong may determine; and
(b) one in the States of Sabah and Sarawak, which shall be known as the High Court in Sabah and Sarawak and shall have its principal registry at such place in the States of Sabah and Sarawak as the Yang di- Pertuan Agong may determine;
and such inferior courts as may be provided by federal law and the High Courts and inferior courts shall have such jurisdiction and powers as may be conferred by or under federal law.
(1A) The courts referred to in Clause (1) shall have no jurisdiction in respect of any matter within the jurisdiction of the Syariah courts.
(1A) merely states that the courts in clause (1) shall not have jurisdiction with regard to matters within the jurisdiction of the Syariah courts. It does not state what is within the jurisdiction of the Syariah courts.
Please don’t take my word.
In 1996, the present Lord Chief Justice, Abdul Hamid Mohamad, whilst still a judge of the High Court, made the following pronouncement of the law in the case of Lim Chan Seng :
‘Apakah kesan peruntukan Perkara 121 (1A) itu? Perkara 121 (1A) bukan memberi bidangkuasa kepada Mahkamah Syariah.
Tetapi ia cuma mengatakan jika sesuatu perkara itu terletak dalam bidangkuasa Mahkamah Syariah maka Mahkamah Tinggi dan Mahkamah bawahan (kesemuanya saya akan sebut “Mahkamah Sivil”) tidak mempunyai bidangkuasa mengenainya’
For those of you who may be inclined to read the judgment in full, comprising some 31 pages, the same in pdf is linked below. The excerpt I have quoted above is to be found at page 241 of the report.
Next time someone tells you that with the advent of Article 121(1A), the Syariah courts and the civil High courts are equal in stature, please tell them that it is a great sin in Islam to lie.
To put this issue beyond doubt, let me again state as loudly and as clearly as I can what I and so many with whom I work with have been saying for as long as i can remember.
We have no desire whatsoever to have Article 121(1A) repealed, amended or done away with.
Why?
121(1A) added nothing to nor subtracted anything from the law as it then was in 1988.
121(1A) is benign, save and except when interpreted and applied by dishonest judges who read into it a meaning and effect that cannot be sustained by the words comprised therein.
Sorry, I digress.
Was not the clarification by the Bar Council sufficient?
Or did it suit the agenda of certain quarters that the Bar Council forum should be portrayed as an initiative to vilify Islam and Muslims?
If so, who, and what was the agenda?
What gave these protesters the impression that the forum was about ‘cabar Islam’ or ‘gugat Islam’?
What steps did these protesters take to try and ascertain what was going to be discussed at the forum?
And if they had not checked for themselves, who told them so, and why?
Might it be the very same people who went to all the trouble to have these posters printed and distributed?
Who are they, and why?
And if the forum was about ‘cabar Islam’ or ‘gugat Islam’, as suggested by this racist from Gabungan Pelajar Melayu Semenanjung (GPMS) who threatened the forum attendees with
“I represent Umno. Stop this forum, don’t insult Islam. You! Chinese, Indians, go to hell”, what then moved Professor Mehrun Siraj 
to say in response, “You are wakil UMNO, saya wakil orang Islam…Sebagai orang Islam kita mesti bertindak dengan cara yang baik”
Prof Mehrun also said, after the forum had been rudely interrupted :
‘Saya sebagai seorang Islam yang mempertahankan Perkara 121(1A) perlembagaan Malaysia,hadir pada forum ini sebab saya percaya cara untuk menyelesaikan apa-apa pertikaian antara orang Islam dengan orang bukan Islam adalah dengan cara perbincangan dan menerangkan kepada orang yang bukan Islam’
What you must know is that Prof Mehrun is married to Tuan Haji Sulaiman, who is standing next to her in the photo above. Tuan Haji Sulaiman appeared both in the Court of Appeal and the Federal Court in the Lina Joy case, arguing against Lina’s case. Given that she spoke out in favour of the forum, was she there, together with her husband to ‘cabar Islam’ or ‘gugat Islam’?
Why was Haniff Khatri Abdullah at the forum as one of the speakers? In case you do not already know, Haniff appeared as lead counsel for the husband in the Subashini case from the High Court through to the Federal Court. Was he there to ‘cabar Islam’ or ‘gugat Islam’?
What about this reaction as reported on the Bar Website :
‘A member of the public, describing himself as a ‘concerned citizen’, when interviewed, admitted that he arrived early and registered for the forum with intention to voice out his dissatisfaction in the forum for challenging the right of Islam and Muslims in this country. He came down from the forum expressing his satisfaction saying that the forum was a good effort. That the forum, instead, discussed the predicament faced by the non-Muslim families of the converts. He concurred with the Bar Council that these unresolved issues need to be ironed out and brought to the open. He was glad that he made the effort to join the forum and found the true intention of the Bar Council, despite it starting out of curiosity and hostility. He also expressed his sympathy towards the crowd whom, he said, were clueless and had no idea that they were fighting against something that does not exist’
The People's Parliament 
su
August 13, 2008
About the Syariah courts and the Civil Hight Courts being equal in stature, you have also previously told me about this once, that it is not true.
Unfortunately, I came about to that conclusion because that was what I studied in school, in Pengajian Am in Sixth Form no less. Mis-education, perhaps?
And about the protest, I believe that they have a right to protest, as does everyone else, but as we always say, do it peacefully. The name-calling, the obscenity and attempted violence were uncalled for.
The public statements made by certain politicians prior to the forum carried a lot of weight, I believe, in stoking the sentiments of some of the protesters. Had the politicians, who get their statements published in every major newspaper, been careful with their choice of words, and not attempted to instigate the fear and misconception, I don’t think the protest would have been that ugly or violent.
And now after the forum was disrupted, the authorities are even considering using the ISA to make sure that nobody dares to host a much-needed forum like the one on Saturday.
Sad that the govt have resorted, again, to this kind of action. But then again, what’s new?
splim
August 13, 2008
In fact I decided not to attend when I received the info on the forum a few weeks ago after looking at the list of speakers. This because Malik Imtiaz and Haris Ibrahim names were missing from the list. I felt that I’m going to hear only one side of the story.
Btw Haris, how come both you and MIS were not invited to be the panel speakers since both of you were involved in these cases one way or another?
splim,
Personally, I think it was good that the forum organisers had speakers other than the usual culprits.
For one, Malik’s and my views are well known. Better to get other views on board.
Also, I imagine that the presence of either one of us on the panel of speakers would have given the agitators additional ammo to attack the forum.
In any event, I was present and would have spoken from the floor if there was a need to correct misconception that I perceived.
TJ
August 13, 2008
Haris, trust you are doing OK with your rhinitis.
Have you taken a peek at Mahaguru’s blog the past few days?
Totally disheartening to say the least. Such arrogance and self-righteouness. It is repulsive.
TJ,
I’m hoping the worst of this episode of rhinitis is over. Seeing the ENT tomorrow.
Yes, I’ve been following his postings. He’s getting from bad to worse.
Take heart, though. For every one MG58, there are more and more reasonable Malay / Muslims coming forth.
Margeemar
August 13, 2008
What happened at the Bar Council Forum is not an isolated case. We see the State, led by the actions of the Police and the statements coming out from Home Affairs Minister Hamid Albar, clearly taking sides on this issue. In fact, what PAS is trying to do overnight in it’s effort to set up an Islamic State in Malaysia, Umno has been doing subtly with the support of it’s non Malay Muslim BN partners.
The BN/Umno regime says that non Muslims must not question Islam or interfere with it. However, the BN/Umno regime sees it fit to interfere with other religions. The latest being the show cause letters given to two internal circulation Catholic newspapers, The Herald and Catholic Asian News…More http://margeemar.blogspot.com
BlindingLight
August 13, 2008
Dear All,
I am a Malay Muslim myself and also wondered what is the fuss all about. We are living in a country with many races and many religions. Therefore we will definitely have cases of people changing religions as we have interaction amongst people.
Although changing religions will definitely be traumatic to the families concerned, we need to have clear guidelines, and laws for all parties – families concerned, the person, the Syariah Court and the Civil Court.
The clear guidelines and laws should cover the following scenarios:
a) if I used to be Muslim and now a Hindu, nauzubillah – what happen if I die, and how should I be buried.
b) I am a Muslim cook, and my Chinese chef wants me to mince pork meat – should I do it ?
c) I am Chinese lady and I want to marry my Muslim boyfriend – will my Chinese family inherit my possession should I die after marriage ?
etc
etc
If I remembered right, we have one case where a Malay Muslim girl wants to marry his Hindu boyfriend. Of course the girl’s family will jump and go mad. What will their neighbors say to them ?
But under the existing laws (which remains largely intact since our British colonial days), that girl has certain rights. This is the rule of law we have all agreed, or our politicians have agreed. Ethically, we cannnot force the girl to remain Islam when she is already worshipping in a Hindu temple.
Therefore there is a need to propose changes to the law. The last time BN have full control of the parliament, changing laws would be very easy but they missed that chance. Now we need both BN and Pakatan Rakyat MPs to discuss this as mature politicians as changing laws require 2/3 to agree, right ?
Preventing discussion is like trying to hide a dead elephant. Of course we see a nice white cloth covering the dead elephant, but you can smell the carcass 10 miles away.
I hope people take this in a positive manner. If we fail to be able to discuss in a peaceful manner, then we are still far away from being a developed country.
Thank you
BlindingLight,
May God continue to bless you with the wisdom that you have displayed in your comment.
Bigjoe
August 13, 2008
Hey, what happened to the link to your petition for this article?
Let me point out that Haris’s reasoning which all Constitutional expert agree on, means that injustice have been perpetuated on MANY for decades, thanks to Dr. M meddling in our courts in 1988. Our justice system is already in ICU and while they are giving IV drip to the patient, they also decide its OK if the patient continue to hurt himself with the same problem he came to the hospita (i.e., the UMNO CJ thing).
Bigjoe,
Thanks for the reminder. The link has been inserted into the post.
Patek1472
August 13, 2008
From Racism to Satanism
1. If anyone thinks as a Malaysian at heart you will never support any of the current political parties who speaks only about championing or protecting their own race and religious interests. Whether it comes from UMNO, PAS, MCA, MIC, PKR, Gerakan, Hindraf, PBS, DAP, PPP or whatever new name it’s called racism and whoever supports that party is called a racist. It is no different from apartheid. It dirties and poison your soul.
2. Those who are racists but speak with a fork tongue (Jeyklls), hiding it behind other causes like religion, meritocracy, education, poverty etc are even worse than clear cut racists and can only fit into the category of satans.
3. Malaysian racists and the MSN have corrupted the following words which meant differently in other countries ex. nationalism, patriotism, royalists, freedom, liberty, corruption, democracy etc.
4. Power, Greed and Selfishness rule in Malaysia and now we include Racism and Satanism.
More facts at http://patek1472.wordpress.com
ongohing
August 13, 2008
The nation is in a serious quandary. Politically and religiously, we have not learned to talk rationally about the foundational issues which are present and must be dealt with. Nothing good is achieved by sweeping things under the carpet. We must learn to engage in meaningful dialogue. If we don’t sit around the table and say our piece one to another, we will never know the other side of the argument. Without such knowledge we will only have our prejudices about one another. The problems can only get worse. Ignorance about one another’s concerns, anxieties and aspirations will only precipitate the situation. Shutting the door to discussion and clamping down on consultation can only make matters worse not better. Under the present circumstances, there is urgent need for mature leadership of the respective groups to wrest the initiative from their more emotional and unreasonable colleagues and set a better example by initiating dialogues where the principle virtue will be listening rather than shouting.
Hear, hear!
art harun
August 13, 2008
To me, the forum was innocuous. It would have gone on and passed away just like any other forum if, and this is a very big if, the politicians had not stoked racial and religious sentiments and the state controlled mass media – chief among whom is TV3 – did not go all goo goo gaa gaa over it every night for the past one week.
I don’t think anybody in the right mind had misunderstood the purpose of the forum at all. It is only these politicians, who are now bankrupt of ideas on how to win support from the masses, who are manipulating the topic of the forum and made it out to be a forum intent on challenging the rights of the Muslims and Malays. Quite what the rights which were being challenged are still unknown till now.
I saw a banner brought by one of the mobs…it says “Jangan Cabar Islam dan Ketuanan Melayu”. Hmmm…does one need to wonder who was behind all these?
bennyloh
August 13, 2008
HOLY COW!
ladyRP
August 13, 2008
Good to see u back Haris. Hope n pray for your recovery even though we do not share the same “God”???? That said…..Me and my friends pray for the prosperity and goodwill in our nation and each day see me getting more depressed about the state of our country. Is God hearing us or are we listening to Him? Seeing PKR and PAS doing and saying what they did n said @ the Forum……did i vote rightly? Aiyah Haris… me too depressed to continue lah. You have a good day n God bless
ladyRP,
Er, I thought there was only one God, notwithstanding that this crazy world calls Him by many names.
malayamuda
August 13, 2008
i dunno la Haris
reading the papers and listening to the news these days makes me sick.
I feel really embarresed to come out of my house these days…..i just wonder what the other races think of me ?
I am consciously subconscious
Klaw
August 13, 2008
To answer the question over your post title:
Who caused the confusion: UMNO ministers, and probably the Malay mainstream media who gave prominence to their rants.
Why: To uphold their image as membela Islam, to win more votes (obviously)
Of coz, what I am saying is all shot when we see PKR and PAS leaders being the more vocal ones.
KW Leong
August 13, 2008
Hi Harris… came to ur blog from Pak Sako blog. Thank u for this info.
yh
August 13, 2008
if i read it correctly from the MSM, the mob response is to be expected according to the PM and DPM. there was not even a slap on the wrist for such uncalled for behaviour from this leadership. to my mind, this is an endorsement of racism and a disgrace to the nation.
This Govt just dont have it; the leadership and the vision. The longer they helm, the further we will descend into the abyss.
ct
August 13, 2008
The fanatics are so prejudiced, the mere mention of Article 121(1A) cause them to react violently, its like an electric bolt, short circuits their rational thinking. That’s why whatever explanation given by the Bar Council will NEVER be accepted because they have already set in their brains to protest. There are alot of other things they should consider voicing out loudly, like the hopeless state of our country’s economy, the deteriorating condition of education system, the filth around us etc etc. These are the things that affect us directly! Probably should try other ways to garner support. Maybe to bring in some learned muslim scholar, like MAZA or some other renowned lawyer so that for once they could respect the Bar council initiative to highlight article 121(1A) to bring a different impact, a positive one.
Avtaran
August 13, 2008
Welcome back Haris.
The government attack on the forum is an obvious attempt to divert attention and ‘unite the Malays’. The same old tactic. But what was very disturbing was the active opposition to the forum by PAS and some PKR members especially the MP Zulkifli Nordin.
Is this the new revitalised Malaysia that we can look forward to should PR come to power? And by the way, no sound from Anwar Ibrahim on this matter. Correct me if I am wrong Haris but Anwar did support the Federal Court decision in the Lina Joy case, right?
So, when it comes to the crunch, there is practically no difference between UMNO and PR on ‘sensitive’ issues. These issues are the ones that need to be tackled by a bold Malay leader. And tackled fast before it becomes cancerous.
teohjitkhiam
August 13, 2008
The demonstration had the taint of UMNO all over it. A classic exercise in provocation and race-baiting whilst using religion as a cover. My photo-blog on the whole take…
Fiasco At Bar Council
haemadad
August 13, 2008
Those protesters are the products of our education system and partisan propaganda from MSMs.
Just look at our teachers and civi servants …. nuff said.
Hoyohoyo
August 13, 2008
Have the people in our country lost their ability to solve a problem? To solve a problem, one would identify the problem, discuss with others the way to solve it, and then action and review…
Shall our country’s law not protect every single human who holds the Malaysian Identity card? Something have to be done to protect, help or enlighten some of the Malaysian, who’s having a problem with the current law… But apparently to some of them… Discussion is not a way to solve such problem…
Does Islam suggest that shall you “perceive” something is wrong (as in gugat Islam), then you can launch a jihad towards that something?
I don’t know, I’m not muslim… So according to some muslims, I shall shut my mouth regarding any Islamic issue because I’m not muslim…
Parli-Man
August 13, 2008
Dear Haris,
Glad to have you back.
The person I am most dissapointed with regarding the above matter is Anwar.
There is no way Zulkifli Nordin would have gone to the forum without Anwar’s blessings.
And then he remains deathly silent about it.
I have been marvelled at Anwar’s recent transformation claiming ketuanan rakyat etc but I guess all these only highlights Anwar is nothing special just a low-down politician who tells you things that you want to hear thats all.
There’s nothing worse than a wolf except for a wolf in a sheeps skin.
Anwar i hope you are reading this….You are a bloody FAKE !
C
August 13, 2008
Maybe it’s another trap laid by the UMNO in making people losing faith,trust and disorders within the Pakatan Rakyat parties. The involvement of PAS and PKR in the protest has clearly caused the damage on the coming by-election. Another thousands of demonstrators on Tan Sri Khalid proposal is another cause. The voters will be confused on the actual stand of PR and thus votes swing.
Although the demonstrations are acceptable as it’s part of democracy values but it had cross the line through threatening and storming into the forum and hurtful insults. It had breached the basic democracy value of freedom of speech.
The PM,DPM’s comments are an example of getting problems swept under the carpet in the past and present which eventually breed immature and narrow mindsets in the Malaysian society. Seeing that no roadblocks,special priviledge from FRU and police,the UMNO and ISA firing the Bar Council instead are clearly part of another conspiracy triggered by govt. The devils inside UMNO are truly scaring as non other BN parties have been so devilish enough to use racist,religions and bankrupted mindset to instigate chaos among the Rakyat for their own selfish benefits.
I myself is puzzled over the reason of the protest on the forum. The key and the lock just doesn’t click. I can’t help wonder how can they do prayers everyday and are so close to Allah every now and they are able to produce such an unreasonable fume and who had committed serious unlawful sins. It’s terrible and scaring.
johnnie
August 13, 2008
Dear BlindingLight
If every muslim were to think like you then what happen at the forum would not have happen. unfortunately in reality there are some group who would not allow such people to put their ideas or view in the open. Why are they fearful? what is the reason for these fears ? I suspect it has got to do with their own survival. they dont care for the people or Islam.
Thank God there are still some good muslim who are fair and see things in the bigger picture, Haris and RPK are some of the people whom come to mind .
ongohing
August 13, 2008
Further to my comments above, I have posted “Slow to anger” in http://ongohing.wordpress.com
Sheikh Housein
August 13, 2008
Dear Bro Haris,
First of all our own PM failed to understand the “true picture” of this FORUM. He too blindly told the Home Ministry should take action against Bar Council.
This PM of ours sometimes dont seem to know what he is talking and worst he dont seem to understand the crux of the matter in discussion.
So this is Malaysia for you….now wonder the world is laughing at us, while the other countries are progressing, we are going backwards.
sjchange
August 13, 2008
Just like never ending story!!!
Eddie Law
August 13, 2008
Hi Haris, I am Eddie from elawyer.com.my, we are going to hold a legal blog writing contest and wish to invite you to become one of our panel judges, may I have your email address and contact no.? are you still in practise?
Eddie Law,
You can e-mail at the address provided in this blog
TJ
August 13, 2008
Dear Haris, thanks for the encouragement.
Am fighting hard not to succumb to despair. As well, I am fighting hard not to tar brush all my Muslims brothers as irrational religious nuts.
Events in recent history of the frightening mob anger of Muslims, the world over, are not encouraging at all. Time and again, we non-Muslims cannot but witness such inexplicable religious fury. It is frightening and perplexing
Why so much anger? Where does it come from?
Where is the peace and love that Islam supposed to stand for?
Does purity of Islamic doctrines trumps everything else?
Are Muslims so diffident about their religion so to chafe at every perceived criticism or insult?
Why are Muslims so besieged? Can we not just sit down and discuss about things as adults?
If God is God, does he need our feeble attempts to protect his honour, anyway?
Well, other readers can add to my list of questions.
As I see it, the only way out of this narrow minded morass in our beloved Malaysia, is for the silent Muslims Moderates to speak out and lead the way.
I see no other solution.
Otherwise, I can only see this country torn asunder and with a bleak future filled with religious strife, paranoia and distrust.
Sad.
Sagaladoola
August 13, 2008
My Opinion on the Recent Interfaith Dialogue
Link :
http://sagaladoola.blogspot.com/2008/08/my-opinion-on-recent-interfaith.html
donplaypuks
August 13, 2008
There was no confusion. Let’s not kid anyone!
The ‘Protesters’ were out to wreck the Bar Council Forum at any and all costs. And predictably, I Raja Polis did not respect the Bar Council’s rights and would not turn the water-cannons or pepper-laced spray against the Protesters; somthing they might have done if the situation were the reverse!!
That is the absolute truth in our Country today.
Ambiga & the Bar Council had better quickly realise that even in an out-and-out democratic USA, strategy and timing counts for everything.
So, a few months or even another 4 years is not too long to wait. Patience is indeed a great virtue!!
http://donplaypuks.blogspot.com
Encik K
August 13, 2008
Dear Parli-Man
I don’t think Zul Nordin went there under his capacity as a PKR man, but more as a PEMBELA rep. With that, he doesn’t really need Anwar’s blessings per se. Last I heard (well, the morning of the demo that is) that Zul Nordin actually never got any blessings from his PKR bosses to ‘lead’ the demo.
I think Zul Nordin has forgotten about the part that he’s now an MP first who owed thousands of Kulim’s non-Muslims over his winnings last 8th March, and a PEMBELA rep second. But of course, in this case, he’s a Muslim first, and a politician second.
It’s just unfortunate for Zul Nordin that he got ‘trapped’ among the much racist UMNO-linked GPMS goons. Orang-orang macam GPMS rep tu patut dihantar ke pulau gersang mana-mana, kasi dia hidup sorang-sorang dengan monyet. Memalukan aku juga sebagai orang Melayu Islam aje.
I sangat concur with honourables Prof.Dr.Mehrun and Tn.Hj.Sulaiman, by the way.
AL
August 13, 2008
May I feature your post to share with our readers a http://mylivingwall.com
All the best to educate more Malaysians…
AL,
Nothing in this blog is copyrighted. Go right ahead.
Yes, lets educate all our fellow Malaysians
navinda
August 13, 2008
Hi Haris,
You posed many pertinent questions to which the answers seem obvious. The whole mess could have been avoided if the so called leaders of this nation had shut their mouth. Instead of encouraging decent discussions, the PM and DPM called for the forum to be canceled. If they in their position can’t understand the need for such forum, how do you expect the layman to understand it. As asked by the DPM, it was indeed a closed affair and not opened to the public at large, like a rally.
The demonstration was the work of ones with vested interest, who had flamed the fire of hatred, distributed posters and probably sms ed unknowings to demonstrate.
It was sad to see members of PAS,who call on non-muslims to be observers in their current delegates meet, fall into a neatly laid UMNO fiasco.
As a muslim myself, I am disappointed with those who profess to champion my religion, yet stoop low to bring poor repute to the majority of the faith. We are letting the lost minority control our lives. It has to be stopped.
Henry Ware
August 13, 2008
These may well be the most important differences in Article 121. 3) Reasonable (or no) setup The excerpt. 2) Check to see what a strong viewpoint are offered alongside the Bar Council.
Al-kudsi
August 13, 2008
I have no sympathy for BAR council which lately has become quasi-political entity serving certain political quarters’ interests. Why choose such title for the forum if Bar is truly sincere. Why not choose a title that is less controversial such as “Bridging the Gap between Syariah & Civil Court” as one example which i think will be far more palatable to Muslim at large. The way i see it there could be a hidden motives behind the forum otherwise why the title?
malayamuda
August 13, 2008
Al-Kudsi,
what are the hidden agendas? name them..
Parli-Man
August 13, 2008
Dear Encik K,
I am glad you concur with them.
Kindly read Realpolitik podcast on MK ” Can the moderates fight back “…very good article I must say.
It is true the good that came out of the forum protest is that the silent Muslim majority are beginning to not be silent anymore.
They refused to be intimidated or bulied by the real ‘Islam Insulters’ which I’m afraid consists of Muslims themselves.
One Islamic leader that I have grown to become a fan of is Dr Zulkiffli,. Pas MP Kuala Selangor.
I believe if he continous to do what he has been doing since been elected in March, the future of Pas will be bright.
BTW I’m a Hindu and not just a non Muslim
Ganesan
August 13, 2008
This forum would have enlightened many of us who have different perception about Islam, that Islam does take care of all, those who had embraced Islam and their past famiies who had not embraced Islam as yet. This hooliginism by some political leaders for their own survival has caused much anxiety.
I like chopin
August 13, 2008
Dear Brother Haris
9/8/08 is a sad day for Malaysia where common sense have to make way for religious bigotry,thanks to our stupid police,racist ministers and pejuang bangsa dan agama wannabes,all for selfish reasons best known to themselves.
Thanks,Haris,for reminding us that the civil courts and civil laws still ruled supreme in this land.And that there are still some clear thinking Muslims around to uphold the constitution for the good of this nation.
I don’t know how you feel,Haris,but I am beginning to feel sick of PAS and PKR’s brand of politics.Not much different from BN.Won’t be surprise you are with me on this.I guess with this kind of people in politics,Malaysia will have a very tough time to keep up with the rest of the world.
rajraman 666
August 13, 2008
To confusing for me,
Whats i know all religions dont teach bad things,but people hijack the religion for their benefits.(most of them okay)
Will forever confused because when i ask a question kena whack by the man with face fungus.More flip flop then WCW the man with split personality.(NEVER SEEMS TO ACCEPT MY POSTING – nothing personal lah WCW)
rajraman.lucky i accidently found this half DNA Indian candleman.(malayamuda,candleman not malay lah only half)The other majority already sold their DNA became full blooded MALAY DNA.
i am pure bred Malaysian althou i am rajraman666 – the devil.
rajraman 666
August 13, 2008
candleman,
I have friend who is born indian – but never worship.
He have a wife Malay muslim – so according Malaysian law he convert but make a pact with his wife – she can practised her religion and their kids also follows his wife religion (islam)but he will never be a muslim (never pray from day one since convert)
He never so far interfered in his wife religion,btw he fall into deppression for no reason (reasonably well to do).However his wife never seems to understand him and ask him to seek bomoh help but he read anything,so he know is hormon change,so he seek for doctor help.
He is very unhappy with his wife attitude because everyday she attend some mullah class,housekeeping neglect,cursed the maid,never read and she think all is religion.(fanatic).What the little mullah say is her world.Since he seek his doctor advised,the doctor told him,if he is not happy he should divorce her (muslim doctor),then he told the doctor how can he divorce her because its easy to say “CERAI” but since he still thinking he is not a muslim and he also worried his kids future and welfare of his wife.He stay for the sake of keeping is family intact althou he very2 unhappy.(his wife also dont want divorce)
One of his close friend (very wise muslim) told him he given to much freedom to his wife and should whack her but he never beleived in violence to be shown in front his kids or to anyone .So most of the time he read and keep quite.
His wife also went to perform haj few years back (VIP Haj)by paying $25,000 and told him later.As usual he told her its your believe you can go,but he as a husband
very unhappy never inform him before deciding to perform Haj.Since she came back from haj she wore tudung and finally he told her he will never go out as family.His wife stick to her believed and he stick to his word.He told me he miss his family.(nobody knows in his family he have marriage problem – so he make a deal with his wife – once a year he will attend Hari Raya with his family and in return she will attend Depavali for the sake his old mum)
So i asking behalf of my friend.
Whats your oppinion.
Whatever your oppinion he told me he will stay for the sake of his family althou he his very2 unhappy.
Please publish this with your wisdom thinking for the sake of my friends out there might face the same problem like him in liberal muslim thinking.
rajraman.Hoping some serene smile of buddha comes from your wisdom to my friend.
rajraman 666,
Life is about choices.
Your friend made the choice of marriage.
He will have to make the choice whether to remain in it or to opt out.
Only he can measure the opportunity costs involved, and rate his own prioritisation. No-one can do this for him.
I wish him all the best.
walski69
August 14, 2008
Again and again, I’m hearing/reading that the title of the forum was provocative.
Honestly, if a mere title can rile up so much uninformed anger, then I really pity the state of the mainstream Malaysian Muslim ummah. If indeed the Muslim NGO coalition actually represents the voice of ALL Muslims, then the malinformed-based action only goes further to prove that Muslims are an irrational and over-emotional lot.
But being a pessimist/cynic with optimistic tendencies, the truth (IMHO) is that the protest was:
a) a premeditated agenda-driven effort,
b) a reflection that in as far as the NGO coalition is concerned, nothing the Bar Council does is right, UNTIL someone sympathethic to their cause heads it, AND
c) definitely not representative of Muslims as a whole.
The mere fact that, on the very same day, an ACCIN-related forum was conducted without any incident at Universiti Malaya, points to a practice of double-standards (read: hypocrisy) and that the protest was about “protecting” Islam as much as kid gloves are actually made from kids.
Nay… said the horse… it was more about having a big “Bar Council” chip on the collective shoulders of the NGO-coalition. With a mob of gullible individuals lending support.
If the mere title aroused such vehement anger, what image was the coalition painting Muslims, at large?
That Malaysian-Muslims are a bunch of ultra-sensitive, irraitional, and unquestioning “Pak Turut” who do not have the mental capacity for critically discerning fact from hyped fiction?
Who exactly damaged the image of Islam on August 9th, 2008?
In the guise of “protection”, to boot…
rajraman 666
August 14, 2008
CANDLEMAN,
my friend also ask me if any readers of TPP can give their opinion because he dont want one sided views.
rajraman.Thats why i read both side of stories my lady.
Al-kudsi
August 14, 2008
Walski69,
Question is why provoke when it can be reasonably anticapated that the reaction will be as such? Its got nothing to with intellectual capacity. That’s the problem with non malays, despite the rhethoric of Malay supremacy, it is the non malays that think that they are supreme just because the malays do not agree with their views they are immediately dismissed as lack intellectual capacity. Pls, give me a break. Besides IQ you obviously need EQ and looks like BAR Council presidentlack one.
Al-kudsi,
How could there be rational disagreement with views if there was no participation in any rational discussion?
mathievanan
August 14, 2008
what about respecting others beleive or their thinking how shallow they maybe.if i am not mistaken Islam means peace.dont this mob qualify as street demonstration,which effects the peace and harmony of the country.
rajraman 666
August 14, 2008
I just to spoke to my friend,
after miss your comments.
My friend say cost his not a issue but his priority now to make sure his kids are well educated and they wise enough to take their choosen part.
As his doctor told him,if he cant follow to the tune of his wife,he forever unhappy and will be deppress.
Then he also advised not to take some medication for long term side effect.My friend told him whats the hell,life had to go on.If he need the medication to calm him down to stay focus lets it be.
rajraman.I will advised him but for sure he wont change until his kids flew away. I personaly think he will disapear from his family when everything in order,i know he aleady planning it.Just time he need.
mie
August 18, 2008
Saya sedih orang Islam gagal memenuhi mesjid dan surau dan asyik menyalahkan orang lain hal ugama Islam sendiri. Tugas orang Islam yang paling penting ialah menunaikan tanggungjawab amal maaruf nahi mungkar. Mengganggu acara atau program orang lain adalah membuang masa dan menyusahkan kerja dakwah sebenar umat Islam.
RicAlichmig
April 24, 2009
I’m the only one in this world. Can please someone join me in this life? Or maybe death…