Commentator Zainal did not approve of my “The beautiful Malay” post.
This is the comment he sent in yesterday :
zainal Says:
September 11, 2009 at 9:41 pm e
I think you are munafik…I don’t think you practising islam…is better for you to declare yourself as murtad so that all the malays knows that you are non muslim. By doing this we can distinguish either you kafir laknat or kafir dhimmi. Kafir laknat or munafik, Allah promise you the lowest level of hell. When you declare yourself murtad, at least you “tak melagakan orang2 islam”. Please if you love very much the Lord of Ganesha…just practise hindusm.
Here’s my response, Zainal.
If you are unable to remain emotionally neutral, and if love or hate are the only two options available, love would be the better, don’t you think?
I mean, hate is so, so, negative, don’t you think?
Hate eats at your innards leaving you all ugly on the inside, can’t you see?
And if you can’t see this, I won’t fault you because you did not have the benefit of a lifetime with a woman who had the ability to see the beauty in everything the naked eye, and more, could perceive.
So let me say this loud and clear.
I do love Lord Ganesha and I do try to practise all that is beautiful and good that I perceive of the Hindu faith.
Just as I do love and try to practise all that is good that I find in all the other faiths, without exception.
You know, the kindness, compassion, charity, equality, justice, annihilation of the ego thingy that the Holy Qur’an extols on its adherents.
It’s there, in all the other faiths, if you’d only allow yourself the chance to discover this.
Does this make me a murtad from Islam?
That’s a matter between God and I, don’t you think?
So why don’t we leave that vexing question to God so that you and I can continue to live in peace?
That would be better than you or I hating each other, don’t you think?
If you can’t quite understand all that I’ve written here, don’t lose sleep over it.
You may, in time, God Willing.
I’ll pray for you.
The People's Parliament 
bennyloh
September 12, 2009
It’s love from me Harris, your religion has taught you well. As the other hateful guy I think he should not preach to anyone
Clifford
September 12, 2009
Zainal should go and join the Taliban in Afghanistan and put all his effort into oppressing the Afghan people under the mask of false piety. He is a born Taliban.
skl
September 12, 2009
dear Mr zainal,
i apologise in advance as what i am going to say to you may not be pleasant however no disrespect is intended and i shall attempt to be respectful at all times.
You judge Mr haris is a hypocrite. Your opinion is as he visits hindu temple to show not all malays are like those cow head protestors that insults other religion as not what a muslim should do and is not islamic, is that what you are trying to say?
In your opinion what is it that he should have done as a muslim?
Do you mean if he is a true muslim then he should join the cow head protestors in insulting other religion?
Islam is a religion of peace do you not agree?
By insulting other religion is peace?
Mr haris action is hostile?
His action and his message is of hate?
Helen Ang
September 12, 2009
Zainal is a product of Mahathirism.
Kiew
September 12, 2009
Dear Helen Ang,
Pls leave the old gentleman out of this. Your reply put you and Mr. Zainal on the same page.
There’s a devil in each and every one of us, no?
Kiew
Kalambong
September 12, 2009
There indeed is a devil inside each and everyone of us, some tiny, others big
And the problem with those with BIG devil inside them is that they demand others to obey them — just like what you are doing to Helen — who do you think you are to tell Helen to “leave that old gentleman out of this”?
Kiew
September 13, 2009
Dear Helen Ang,
No offend intended.
Dear Kalambong,
I just feel it is unnecessary and unfair to drag Tun Dr Mahathir in over someone’s ignorance about this issue (No issue really).
Peace brother. Peace.
Regards, Kiew
cruzeiro
September 14, 2009
I don’t see why Helen should be wrong or should refrain from speaking a truth – Mahathir is the culprit of much that ails Malaysian society. As he himself would love to say, “We should look at the ‘root cause’ of the problem….”
He single-handedly corrupted the minds and hearts of a generation of Malaysian.
So, if Zainal has a mind and a heart that is corrupted, shouldn’t we be seeking “the root cause”?
Helen – I’m with you on this …..
Helen Ang
September 13, 2009
Kiew,
I suggest you read this article by Dr Geoff Wade
http://english.cpiasia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1689:fractured-society-and-anti-chinese-sentiments-under-dr-m&catid=219:contributors
about Mahathir’s damaging legacy — an academic review which doesn’t even scratch the tip of the iceberg, about what that “OLD GENTLEMAN” (grief! of all the naivette I’ve had to encounter) that you address him as, has wrought on this devastated country.
May I ask you if are you even aware of the severity of the curse word ‘laknat’ hurled by Zainal?
May I ask you if the intolerant mindsets like Zainal & the cow-head protesters who arrogantly (and backed by authority) that feel free to label other Malaysians [makhluk yang “dilaknati” Allah] had proliferated, and proliferated with state sanction under the premierships of Tunku or Tun Hussein Onn?
And by God, you say “leave Mahathir out of this” after his SIX terms in office (if we go by the American presidential four years) — and one who unilaterally declared M’sian an Islamic state that’s taken shape in Shah Alam Sect. 23?
Just think about this if you’re so eager to excuse the ‘old gentleman’;
what if we had had Tengku Razaleigh as PM, what if the wily old fox had not rigged the Umno elections, do you think we’d not have a different, gentler and kinder country today?
amal
September 13, 2009
Helen Ang,
With all due respesct, I think the focus here is the importance of loving all the kindness within all religions. A sudden refocus towards Tun M is uncalled for here. At least that is what I think.
Helen Ang
September 13, 2009
Amal,
You know, ma’am, when I hear the dripping phrase “With all due respect”, somehow I’m not particularly convinced that views are indeed ‘respected’.
This is a free forum, as I understand it, and not the parameters dictated by some Focus Police.
So ‘No’, I do not think my initial one-liner on tracing the origin of a Zainal-type mindset to Mahathirism is “uncalled for here” in this thread — deriving from the Shah Alam temple cow-head episode.
Zainal’s comment stems from his belief in segregation — that Haris sitting inside the Hindu temple among Indians makes him a ‘kafir laknat/munafik’.
And who do I think is most responsible for the polarization of races in M’sia? I suppose you can at least agree to disagree on ‘Who’ that is.
bar kochba
September 18, 2009
Helen,
I have read the link that you posted and the conclusion you have on Zainal.
Your understanding of Zainal’s problem is inaccurate.
Let me put it this way; Zainal could very well be a non supporter of Mahathir , a non-UMNO member and a staunch supporter of PAS, or Keadillan or even DAP – to say the things he said.
It is convenient to link Mahathir’s Malay centric stratagem and his rhetorical statement about the “islamic state” (which was intended to tell the Malays to stop emulating the Arabs) to the mental illness suffered by Zainal; but the truth is far from that.
Zainal probably doesn’t even understand his religion or Mahathir’s message and probably haven’t read a single of Mahathir’s book (have you?)
He is acting on his old conditioned malay impulse to lash out on those of whom he perceive to be disloyal or traitors to his own people – in the case, the context of religion.
Mahathir got a similar treatment, shortly after the publication of Malay Dilemma.
shar101
September 12, 2009
Haris,
Perhaps, this bloke ‘hates’ you coz your ‘engrish’ is better than his ‘england’.
Time to move on, bro.
oettinger
September 13, 2009
i should think so as well.
An ignoarant man
September 12, 2009
I dont know about you guys..but my religion forbids belittling other religion..we are taught that when ever and where ever people gather to worship god in all their sincerity ..HE WILL BE THERE…Don’t they teach it in yours? Spiritual laws of God never change..they are iternal only social law change according to time revealed..I love you
frags
September 12, 2009
I think this katak dalam tempurung was just so shocked you visited a temple.
Habib RAK
September 12, 2009
Hope you can highlight this video clip by YB Khalid Samad
http://www.tvselangor.com/video?str=%21a932f54b63607770b94c5ddf683e23%cfcd208495d565ef66e7dff9f98764da%&lp=857
Meng
September 12, 2009
The Quran teaches love..but he is not following the Quran to preach and show loving kindness. What is he then..a Kafir
I pity that guy Zainal who does not have the “Quran in his heart”.
Bogeyman
September 12, 2009
ahhhh….. another UMNO die-hard vents his worthless 2 sens in bad english. Truly the product of 52 years of bad government propoganda. I pity the like of him.
islam is universal
September 12, 2009
I am confused.
Zainal as a MALAY has requested you to declare your faith – muslim or kafir.
So I suppose there are now 1 billion Malays.
Alternatively can other Muslims now accuse Zainal of blasphemy?
By the way we are getting tired of claims of propriety to Islam.
oettinger
September 13, 2009
thats bullshit!
islam doesnt teach you to call others kafir.
even during the times of rasulullah, he himself never called the hypocrites munafik or non-believers kafir.
who on earth is zainal to ask haris whether he is a muslim or kafir?
is that man alright in the first place as in is his akal baligh alright?
kasim
September 15, 2009
oettinger, there’s a verse in the Quran that reads, “Qul, Ya Ayyuhai Kaafiruun” that means “Say, Oo you kaafiruun!”, meaning that God instructed Rasulullah to address the non-believers as kafirs.
oettinger
September 17, 2009
by saying that kasim, that does that mean that we are not opening our doors to non muslims to embrace islam? or is it confined to the nitpicking ways of tahlils and stuff like that? wow! i am a muslim, i know soera al kafiroon well enough. and now, you are saying and implying these people are doomed to hell? who on earth taught you that?
WhoIsHypocrite
September 12, 2009
Once you
hate others,
steal from others,
kill others,
threaten others,
murder others,
bully others,
insult others,
provoke hatred on others,
look down on others,
lie to others,
hurt others,
suppress others,
oppress others,
ridicule others,
cheat others,
curse others,
mock others,
above others,
smarter than others,
rape others,
rob others,
scold others,
frame others,
belittle others
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH RELIGION YOU PRACTICE. YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!
syazana
September 13, 2009
Hear hear!
amal
September 13, 2009
can’t agree more…
Hartalmsm
September 13, 2009
WHO IS HYPOCRITE: the Mahathir clan.
Mirzan Mahathir was recently appointed to the board of San Miguel Corp, owner of San Miguel Brewery Inc.
sampalee
September 12, 2009
For one to see his own religion as superior to that of others,that person sadly does not known his OWN religion.There is only ONE truth and All religions uses dufferent skillful ways to point out the ONE truth.
If we can live more like Harris,our faith in our own respective religion is further enhanced.
Sam01
September 12, 2009
This is a beautiful reply from a beautiful person and human being who knows God.
Harris, you are too advanced in your thinking and understanding of God than this idiotic Zainal who is no better than a horse with blinkers.
He is the one who is to be pitied for his ignorance. Poor soul, he is.
rajan
September 12, 2009
Harris,
This was the APPARENT RISK i wrote about in my comment
on your posting “The beautiful malays”
They cant match you on substance so they use this manner.
Lord KRISHNA said ” WE MAKE NO DIFFERENCES AMONG US
PROPHETS”
One can expect more from these imbeciles and morons.
lim
September 12, 2009
You have replied well. Religion is not about learning theories or terminologies , it is also about practice, why do we say “practise “, that is because we are not perfect. Religion is not only about learning the physical aspects of things or just abut memorising facts or doing without heart, everything comes from the heart. You do not seek to find the ugly in people, but seek to practise bringing out the beauty in you.
Mr. Bad
September 12, 2009
I’m shocked at some of you commenters. Can’t you leave poor Zainal alone? As it is, he is deprived of understanding of what God requires of us, must you belittle him some more. Can’t you instead feel pity for him, and pray that one day God will help him understand?
Mr. Bad,
I was waiting for one person to say what you have said.
Thank you and God bless.
kunta
September 12, 2009
Widsom is given to men by GOD so they can follow the faith of their choice .After all Men plan and God decides so dont worry and be loving.
Isn’t it the teaching of all religions-
LOVE IS NEVER AFRAID OF GIVING TOO MUCH ?
Bru , start to love right now and leave behind your hatred which will make GOD smile.
bkho
September 12, 2009
Thanks to you, Haris, I have my interest piqued in studying the Quran although I am a staunch Buddhist.
If I’m not mistaken, there is a passage that says,
“For the followers of Allah, they must respect the freedom of other religions, for if they inculcate hate for the followers of other religions, the others will begin to hate Islam as well”.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, and those who know the Quran, please quote the correct Surah and Ayat.
bkho,
Something like that, yes.
Can’t remember the chapter and verse off hand, though.
I have learnt a good deal from having closely studied the “Gospel of Buddha” by Paul Carus.
A definite must read.
Tun Dr. Mahathiir
September 13, 2009
The intention of that Quranic passage you refer to is to protect Islam from attacks, and NOT because that Quranic passage genuinely respects or accepts other religions.
If that Quranic passage was truly a statement of acceptance of other religions, then it would say very clearly that followers of Allah should respect and accept other religions with any conditions. After all all religions are His creation.
But the way the passage is it seems as if it is instructing Muslims to respect the freedom of other religions so that Islam itself is not under threat. That is the key intention of that passage. In other words, the calling of that passage is self-serving, not a selfless principle.
This is the main problem that Muslims grapple with, that it is a hegemonic religion, not one that is truly pluralistic.
Tun Dr. Mahathiir
September 13, 2009
Correction: I meant ‘without any conditions’, not ‘with any conditions’
oettinger
September 12, 2009
haris,
you are not the only one that loves ganesha and his teachings.
i ran into problems. my friend took me to a hindu temple. i seek help. and i got the solution there and then.
i support you in this take.
cheers and hope you like the crocs 🙂
sembilan
September 12, 2009
God helps those who help themselves
If ones chooses to remain stupid then all the Gods in the Universe cannot just do magic on him and make him smarter. A rotten fruit will only rot further and smells bad too.
Shakuntala
September 12, 2009
Man for all seasons, Haris….bravo!
Wow, how thrilling to be told you love Ganesha..the Deity of wisdom and success! also of knowledge, wealth and education.The destroyer of evils….of the calibre of Zainal and persons like him!
Next…you will probably be likened to Gautama Buddha, ….all….rather wonderful.
temenggong
September 13, 2009
Well said Haris. Yes, many malays are shocked to find that Hinduism, Taoism and Buddhism teach EXACTLY the same values, and that these religions like islam is a ‘deen’ at it’s core.
I’d go further and shock the malays even more by saying that there is almost nothing new in islam but a restatement of the old ‘deen’ that these old religions represent.
But it is natural for religious adherents to be proud and show their religion as unique. Yes, Islam is unique in some ways, but essentially non-unique as a deen.
Bob
September 14, 2009
“DEEN” What is “DEEN”?
I thot u said my Dean was coming? I got worried.
Then I got even more worried thinking MY-U-DEEN from Muar was coming. That fellow suffers from Mad-Cow disease, he ate too many mad cows, chickens, and pork during his youth, when he grew up in Muar.
But what if u r referring to the Mah-Jew-U-Deen from Afghanistan? That is very fright-deening.
Aiyoh! too many deens. (and 2 many Deans 2). So lets just say Shi* Happens, and Life’s a Beach, so please dont judge others. Let’s live without judging and leave the judging to the Big Deen who according to the 3 Abrahamic faiths, will JUDGE us at the End-of-times-AKHIRAT. (Not sure whether it is in your “DEENS” list of reading materials).
temenggong
September 14, 2009
Nope. Not in the Dean’s list. This is plain old deen – a way of life! Judging? What judging? Life is a bitch!
bks
September 13, 2009
If Hindus and Christians are destined for hell, then i suggest you get on the boat as well, Harris! Heaven will be overloaded with people like ZAINAL, Seksyen 23 Cow-Head Protestors, Najis, Keris & etc. and i dont think that is where you want to spend your eternity! We can meet History’s greats, namely Gandhi, M.L.King Jr & co in Hell. Doesn’t that tempt you?
oettinger
September 13, 2009
ganesha is not only the deity of wisdom and success but also a deity that overcomes obstacles. mind you, he could act within seconds if you really put your heart to it.
ask zainal to go to kortumalai pillayar and see how would he feel? he would tremble at his feet.
Ayu Azalea
September 13, 2009
Haris,
This is what I always get when I speak highly of the Lord Buddha. My Malay friends just don’t understand. They thought when you read their books and talk highly about other religion, you are murtad already. This is so wrong. I feel sad when some of them tells the other not to be too close to me, because my akidah is no longer intact and I might influence them. I used to always have argument with my bf because he said what I said might bring wrong impression to other Muslims and that I don’t have enough guidance to talk about this. It came to the point that I asked him, if I am a Buddhist, would you still love me and accept me as who I am? Only when he said yes, I allow him to be a part of my life. Truth is, I am still a Muslim and nothing could ever change that. I found joy, happiness, freedom when I read books on Buddhism/Hinduism as much as I read the Quran though in my honest opinion, I found so much fears and angers written in the Quran.
Saiful
September 16, 2009
Everyone of us lives with a certain perception or mindset which may be right and may also be wrong – more often wrong rather than right. A lot of people have a wrong perception of what it takes of be a Muslim.
A VIP, who was once a Minister is known to have said before a group: “ I don’t pray except on Fridays. I drink – I used to have a bar in my house – but I consider myself a good Muslim because I never refused donations!” That’s one example of the wrong mindset I am talking about.
A lot of Muslims are proud of their identity but they know next to nothing about Islam and they are contented to become blind followers of charismatic leaders. Unless a person accepts the doctrine of the Oneness of God and the Prophet-hood of Muhammad, followed by years of study, being able to read well the Holy Quran in original Arabic and the meaning of at least a few short surahs (chapters), exposed to Islamic history and literature, absolutely believes in the six articles of faith and put into practice the five pillars of Islam (about which I’ve written briefly somewhere in this posting) he is not qualified to call himself a Muslim, let alone a good one. Having a Muslim name printed on one’s IC doesn’t mean anything. Learning Islam merely by reading books also is not good enough. You need a properly qualified teacher who sincerely wants to teach Islam to guide you. And most importantly, you must be well rooted in Islam before you can venture out to study other religions.
Based on what you have written, I am bound to agree with your boyfriend who fears that you might bring wrong impressions to other Muslims because that could be the case of the one-eyed leading the blind (or could it be the other way round)!
Sure, you are going to find fears and angers written in the Holy Quran if it is only those passages that you read. Why don’t you read the Holy Quran from cover to cover (if it is a translation, with the original Arabic alongside it). If you do, then you will find that the Holy Quran doesn’t talk about paradise and hell alone. It contains facts of science, biographies, ancient history and many other interesting things.
Probably you’ve missed a lot in Islamic education. But never mind, you can always start. It is , as they say, better late than never.
Saiful,
Pray tell, what is a Muslim name?
Saiful
September 16, 2009
Well…. Names such as Mahathir Mohamad, Hasmah Ali, Najib Razak, Rosmah Mansor, Muhyiddin Yassin, Khir Toyo, Nazri Aziz, Shahidan Kasim, Rahim Tamby Chik, Jamaludin Jarjis, Haris Ibrahim, Kassim Ahmad, Manan Harun, Akbar Ali… are all Muslim names. These are mere names, though. They don’t necessarily reflect their faiths in Islam. There are many others…too many to list down here.
Saiful,
If Nazri Aziz is a Muslim name, what of Tariq Aziz?
Is there a verse in the Qur’an or some hadith that you can point to that will help the rest of us identify a Muslim name when we see one?
Saiful
September 13, 2009
Haris,
While I don’t fully subscribe to Zainal’s way of putting forth his ideas, I have to disagree with some of your own statements which, I think, need scrutiny, i.e:
(a) Hate is negative.
Hate is part of human nature, negative or positive depending on the object of hate. “…They enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong….”(Surah 3:114). This is hate of the positive type. On the other hand, “The hypocrites, men and women, are all alike: they enjoin evil and forbid what is just…..” (Surah 9:67). This is hate of the negative type. You must be lying if you say you’re above hate. How about your hate towards Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his hadith (his actions and utterances) and your hate towards the institution of ulama (religious scholars)?
(b) “I do love Lord Ganesha and I do try to practise all that is beautiful and good that I perceive of the Hindu faith.”
If one is a Muslim, he should be loving Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.)) and his hadith. If he is a Hindu, yes, he should be loving Lord Ganesha. If he is a Christian he should be loving Jesus (p.b.u.h). [Incidentally, Jesus is also loved and revered by the entire Muslim community because he is one of the 25 great names that Allah mentions in the Holy Quran. In fact one chapter is accorded to his mother, Maryam (Mary)]. Now, if you’re a Muslim, as you claimed yourself to be, what business have you to be loving Lord Ganesha and forsaking Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.)? Or are you just playing to the gallery trying to gain some popularity?
(c) “Does this make me a murtad from Islam?”
A murtad (apostate) is a person who gets thrown out of the pale of Islam just like a footballer who gets thrown out of the field after breaking some ground rules.
Now what are the ground rules? Let’s recap what we learned in our primary schools.
A Muslim must believe in:
1. ALLAH – a contraction of the word “Al” (The) and “Ilaah” (God) referring specifically to the Unitarian God who absolutely rules the universe, having no partner or family member, and who has revealed a description of Himself in Surah 112: 1 – 4 thus:
“ Say: He is Allah the One and Only. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, neither is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.”
Based on the above, everybody is free to use the term “Allah” in his talks and publications provided he sincerely subscribe to this concept of the Creator.
2. THE ANGELS, countless in number, invisible beings created by Allah to perform various tasks including recording man’s good and bad deeds.
3. THE REVEALED BOOKS – Taurat (Torah); Zabur (Psalms of David); Injil (revealed to Prophet Jesus in Aramaic (Old Hebrew) – not the present day Bible which is printed in English and its various translations – and, of course, the Holy Quran as the infallible Word of God.
4. PROPHET MUHAMMAD as the last messenger of God. Preceding him are (as appeared in the Holy Quran): Adam (Adam), Idris (Enoch), Nuh (Noah), Hud (Heber), Salih (Saleh or Methusela), lbrahim (Abraham), Lut (Lot), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Yaaqub (Jacob), Yusuf (Joseph), Daud (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Musa (Moses), Harun (Aaron), Ayub (Job), Shu’aib (Jethro), Zulkifli (Isaiah or Ezekiel), Ilyas (Elijah), Alyasa’ (Elisha), Yunus (Jonah), Zakaria (Zacharias), Yahya (John the Baptist) and Isa (Jesus). Peace be upon all of them.
5. THE HEREAFTER where everybody will be resurrected and made to face God and account for every single act of commission or omission while on earth. His lips will be sealed and his other organs will do the talking. “Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it.” (Surah 99: 7, 8)
6. PREDESTINATION which is of two categories: conditional (mua’llaq) and final (mubram).
As a manifestation of these beliefs, it is mandatory upon every Muslim to perform and observe the following:
1. SHAHADATAIN – the declaration that “I bear witness that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”
2. PRAYERS – the five daily prayers in the way the Prophet Muhammad has performed. They must be performed with utmost sincerity. A mere PR exercise just won’t do and will be rejected.
3. FASTING in the month of Ramadhan, also in the way Prophet Muhammad has performed.
4. ZAKAT (tithes).
5. HAJJ once in a lifetime, at least, for those who can afford.
Those are the ground rules for Muslims. The non-Muslims have their own ground rules, too. Willful failure to observe just anyone of them will make a Muslim, despite all his protestations, no longer so.
In one of your earlier posts, you have openly declared that you are not fasting, that’s breaking rule No. 3. Now, if you’re not a murtad, then what do we call you? As if that’s not enough, you’re masquerading as a Muslim and trying to influence others to rebel against God and disobey His commands. That’s downright treason. If treason against The Yang Dipertuan Agong, the King of Malaysia, warrants a death penalty, how about treason against God, the Lord of the universe?
(d) “That’s a matter between God and I, don’t you think?”
I say, man. Sounds like you’re having a very chummy relationship with God! Come on, brother. Though God is Most Compassionate and Merciful – He even gives free rain and sunshine to those who goes against Him and His Prophet, he isn’t your friend in the sense that you can share a pack of cigarettes with Him and slow-talk Him into condoning you’re antics. He’ll surely come down hard on you if you continue to brazenly and wantonly breaking His ground rules. Unless, of course, you repent and make amends.
oettinger
September 13, 2009
you are being personal my friend.
what haris does with his life has got no forbearance on me. i respect his wishes. i am not out here to defend him. i do not wish to inculcate hate or misunderstanding when it comes to issues like this.
i would prefer not to engage myself in war of words with anyone in here, that includes you.
firstly, read what is posted here in below: –
Commentator Zainal did not approve of my “The beautiful Malay” post.
This is the comment he sent in yesterday :
zainal Says:
September 11, 2009 at 9:41 pm e
I think you are munafik…I don’t think you practising islam…is better for you to declare yourself as murtad so that all the malays knows that you are non muslim. By doing this we can distinguish either you kafir laknat or kafir dhimmi. Kafir laknat or munafik, Allah promise you the lowest level of hell. When you declare yourself murtad, at least you “tak melagakan orang2 islam”. Please if you love very much the Lord of Ganesha…just practise hindusm.
did you read the above posting? where do you derive from this episode of this posting? are you trying to comprehend and trying your utmost level best by protecting this fella here? who on earth is he to distinguish who is kafir dhimmi or kafir laknat? tell me. give us an explanation.
i have had enough of this faith bashing thing. one prays the other doesnt. one follows adat the other doesnt. one goes for hajj, the others doesnt.
what big business do you have to question the integrity of this man? do you know how much this man sacrificed? do you think that this man is only a blogger? how and what makes you think he still doesnt love Allah? what makes you think that he will not be a good muslim at the end of time? are you saying its already the end of time for him that he cannot repent? bloody hell!
haris, you do not need to sanitize my language here. forgive me. i stand with you. the others stand with you as well.
last but not least, posting the above post could result me suspecting you of being a munafiqin even though there’s free flow of rain and sunshine.
thank you.
AnakBangsaMalaysia
September 14, 2009
At least Haris is honest about what he does.
Would you be willing to say with full certainty that all the Sultans in Malaysia, who are supposed to be the protectors of Islam in our country, do not consume alcohol?
How about high ranking UMNO officials? Do you think Hishamudin and Nazri dont drink alcohol or, in Nazri’s case at least, get comfortable with loose women?
Religion is spiritual and personal. If you want the umat to be strong, then make sure their supposed leaders dont apply one standard for themselves and another one for the others.
If Haris is breaking Muslim rules, at least he is doing good work to compensate for it. What good work has any of the other Muslims in Malaysia who break the rules of their religion done for our people.
I spoke to a true Muslim man who observes all the rules that Muslims in our country are supposed to follow and this is what he told me, ” In Islam, we are not supposed to judge what others do. We are supposed to do what we believe is right.” Amazing how a man like him can be so level headed and cool compared to people who get angry and judge other Muslim who are honest about what they do.
Finally, Haris is not trying to confuse any Muslims. And if what he is doing is so bad, then the supposedly better Muslims should be able to save the people from being misled by him right? (this one is directed to those who say that Haris is trying to mislead Muslims) I mean, why should you be paranoid about outside influences? If the umat are truly strong, then obviously they can overcome any obstacle with their faith intact and not having to result to hate mongering and violence.
Bob
September 14, 2009
Saiful, thank u 4 the very clear summary of a Moslem and his/her beliefs.
Curious though! Why does it matter to another human being whether a person is still a follower of his/her religion? That’s his/her problem.
I remember reading my old history books, that the Roman Catholic priests didnt want anyone to read the Bible. They read the so called Latin translations or even Aramic/ or old hebrew as u put it to the believers.
Once the Bible was translated into common language, these keepers of the law lost their power over men.
Anyway, if one takes say 3 or 4 different translations of the Bible (say the NIV, King James, American Standard Version, New Living Translation, etc.)
(U can look it up in the internet at BibleGateway.com, etc).
Then take a single verse, say John 14:6, compare the same verse in the different versions. You will find that it states the same thing. (So have you been lied to that the various English versions have different stories). Basically the translators go back to the earliest manuscripts and translate into modern English. Their work is checked and rechecked by committee of scholars who are experts in their field. All of them have to agree that the English translated sentence has the same meaning as the original manuscript.
These manuscripts are reviewed and checked each time an older manuscript is found. There has been a remarkable consistency in the authenticity of these documents. So please be aware that the translated works are similar to the original Old Hebrew or Aramic. A lot of the new Testament was written in the “global” language of the time, which was Greek although probably Jesus spoke in Aramic.
Try the comparison using the verses from John5:24 or John5:26 or John3:16.
Dont worry, reading the Bible or touching “Holy Water” will not make you a Christian or any less a Moslem. Just like the chap Mahathir who commented, the Koran does not recognize other religions as equals, it merely does not want its followers to ridicule other religions, so that it in turn is not ridiculed by others. This is the old “eye 4 an eye thingy”. One bunch of people carry a cow head, another bunch carries some other head, then all heads get broken, bloody and chopped off. The only happy people will be those who sell coffins…
oettinger
September 14, 2009
i would like to ask you a question here. why do you darn well talk about punishment all the time? it looks like you are making islam a very violent religion. now i am thinking twice of whether should i continue to be a muslim or not.
compassion comes in many forms my dear friend. do not threaten people with punishments. there is always a room for taubat or repentance. get it?
sampalee
September 13, 2009
Saiful,you have read and disgested the whole manual of operation,repair and maitainace of a car.Yet you do not know what a car looks like least to say driven one.Do you claim to KNOW Allah,please be honest as it is a sin to lie[you probably memorise this too.People like Harris and RPK are mukmims,they live everybreath with the lovingness of ALLAH.You qoute the holy kithab and yet you miss the essense.Can you please explain TAWHEED to the readers in your own words,if not I suggest you spent more time with a good tok guru[Nik Aziz is a good one]and KNOW THYSELF.The Truth in the Qu’ran is above secular and worldly and it is either you get it or you dont.A miss is as good as a mile.
There is no shame in not grasping the truth,sit down with your fellow muslim and open up our opinioted intellect to the NON-CONCEPTUAL wisdom of the kithab.Let not our ego[ease god out] stand in our way to secure refuge in Tuhan.Inshaallah
sang kancil
September 13, 2009
Muslim and Islam, Hindu & Hindusim, Chritians and Christianity, Buddhist and Buddhism, Jews and Judaism, etc etc.
Religion is personal and is a way of life. Treat it with respect and reap the benefits. Do not abuse it as blaspemy is the cardinal sin of RELIGION.
Man has been abusing religion since Adam was a little boy and man will continue to abuse it. These abuses inflicted by man are for their own selfish gain. Power and money are always the root cause of these abuse.
sumat
September 13, 2009
Encik Haris,now I respect you more than the Lord Ganesha.
sumat,
Please don’t do that
sumat
September 13, 2009
“O God! if I worship Thee for fear of Hell, send me to Hell; and if I worship Thee in hopes of Paradise, withhold Paradise from me; but if I worship Thee for Thine own sake, then withhold not from me the Eternal Beauty.” –Rabia al-Adawiyya-
Amin
sumat
September 13, 2009
I’m not a Hindu, not a Muslim, not a Christian, not a Buddist or even an Atheist, but
I’m lucky can still remain as a decent human being.
Sherab
September 14, 2009
I like it when you say that you love Ganesha…
Yes, like what Rumi said:
” To see God in everything is my daily prayer…”
or something like that…
God bless you!!!
Sherab,
And may God continue to bless you.
sampalee
September 14, 2009
It is not just for Rumi,if you and I do not see it as he did, we fall short of understanding the kithab.The wisdom of Tawheed say it all.
anna brella
September 14, 2009
An ancient Hindu salutation to Almighty God (and which is included in the book The Far Pavilions by M M Kaye):
“Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations.
Thou art everywhere but I worship thee here.
Thou art without form but I worship thee in these forms.
Thou needest no praise yet I offer thee these prayers and salutations.”
This salutation makes no distinction whatsoever between religious faiths.
Like the Lord’s Prayer taught by Jesus Christ, it too can be offered to the God of Christianity or to the God of Islam or to the God of Hinduism or to…. etc. ad infinitum.
According to my understanding of Hinduism, Lord Ganesha aka Lord Vinayagar, is a symbolic representation of God in the mode of being the prime problem-solver of all our human problems.
My understanding is that Lord Ganesha represents symbolically God’s unconditional love and compassion as well as God’s reason and importantly, God’s humility.
If you, Haris, love the God of Islam, then there is surely no harm in you loving Lord Ganesha because Lord Ganesha is a symbolic representation of the One God who we address using our chosen religion’s uniquely given name/s for this One Almighty Being known simply as God/Tuhan.
If anyone considers that wrong/blasphemous from the point of view/teaching of any religion out there, then so be it.
I think it fair to say that as far as anyone knows at present, there are NO fail-safe proven human experts on Almighty God currently alive anywhere here on planet earth.
“Imagine Power To The People” John Lennon.
Saiful
September 16, 2009
anna brella Says:
“Like the Lord’s Prayer taught by Jesus Christ, it too can be offered to the God of Christianity or to the God of Islam or to the God of Hinduism or to…. etc. ad infinitum”.
Sounds like there are many Gods around – one for the Muslims, one for the Christians, one for the Hindus….” This is preposterous and intellectually it is unacceptable.
There can only be one truth: that is there is only one God ruling over one universe and He revealed only one religion, Islam.(Islam means “submission to the will of the Creator”) to guide His creatures. The fact is, we are all creatures of the same God and we all started off as muslims i.e. submitting to the will of that one God.
If that is so how come, you may ask, there so many religions today? Well, some people modified the original revealed religion and while others created new ones – to gain wealth, power, fame etc. – that have nothing to do with God and they told people what God never said. They did all these because they knew, religion sells.
Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon all of them) are all prophets of God who preached the true message of Islam. As God sent a prophet to every nation, in all probability Gautama Buddha, Confucius and a host of others could have also been prophets of God whom Muslims must respect.
Again, if they are preaching the same message of God, how come Christian, Hindus, Buddhists etc. don’t worship God the same way? The problem is with the followers and not the leaders (prophets) of the original religion. Out of sheer love and adulation they turn into a god someone who is just an ordinary human being and make him a partner to The One True God.
Take the case of Jesus (pbuh), for example. Nowhere in the Bible did he claim to be God and yet millions worship him. Or the Shiah, who claims to be Muslims, and yet some of them make Ali to be their God.
So, the truth is: there is only one God (Allah) whom we all should worship. And as we all are descendants of Adam the first prophet of God, we are members of a very big family and should therefore be able to live as brothers, sisters and cousins in total submission to Him and to Him alone.
navinda
September 14, 2009
Zainal is a typical product of Malaysia. A lot of show and little substance. Hasn’t enough of Islam been written that he does not fathom the deep meaning of the religion; to live in peace with one another being one of them. Does praising someone else religion makes one a murtad? I am afraid Zainal is indeed lost.
You are doing a fantastic job of creating the Saya Anak Malaysia concept and without bringing race and religion into it. Our support always.
myook
September 14, 2009
Zainal is a Neanderthal or he belongs to the Middle Ages, as do the whole lot of them that desecrated that poor animal.
The cow is one of God’s creatures, a gentle animal that succours us with milk and meat; the least one would expect would be some grace and dignity.
Haris, you are light years ahead, in your capacity to love, to reason, to think.
God bless!
Shakuntala
September 14, 2009
Excuse me, talking about God and the World when we are such a potpourri of a people, of varying beautiful colours…is not proper, or meaningful, in company such as ours.
Because religion (anything one is interested in …is religion) inflames and you don’t necessarily get rational comments, even from intelligent persons.
As I observe…even a person as great as Tun Dr Mahathir has decided to join us, ordinary men on the street, in a competitive conversation about God…I wonder why… even he feels so insecure.
And poor God, always preferring not to join in, always… so silent.
Therein lies the mystery…which you and I and all of us poor mortals…do not know, so we better not say.
Kiew
September 14, 2009
Dear Haris,
First of all, I do agree with what you did. It’s a graceful way of countering the silly incident in Shah Alam and shows that in all the threat of mayhem, there is still love.
It is easy to love you brother Haris, for you are beautiful. What I would like to point to your readers is, can we love poor Zainal as well?
From what I gather here, loving Zainal for all his ignorance, proof to be much harder. Countering hatred with hate and jeer isn’t going to lead us any where. Loving those who hate and condemn us as Zainal did, is the only way we can heal others and ourselves. It is the only way forward. It is the only way we can heal our beloved nation.
I love you Zainal. I’m praying for you too.
I rest my case.
Kiew
Kiew,
Way to go.
ttc
September 15, 2009
😛 Two questions to put to Zainal or some other person:
One:
People’s pahlawan 8) RPK has reliably informed everybody everywhere that a munafik is a type of nasty baddie called a hypocrite. But what in the name of whatever it is all here want to ask you, is a murtad please? Is it another pesky baddie like RPK’s munafik or perchance not a baddie at all but instead is really a nice foodie like you know 🙂 yummy murtabak or crunchily tasty murkku?
Two:
What is a kafir laknat and a kafir dhimmi please? Are they pesky baddies again like RPK’s munafik or perchance more really special types of citrusy kaffir limes for cooking with 🙂 tasty fishies into aromatic foodies?
WE SAY YEAH! & NO TO ISA! 😛 AND HARIS FOR AG & RPK FOR IGP! GO FOR DSAI FOR PM & LKS FOR DPM & KIND WAN AZIZAH FOR HOME MINISTER.
2009 Resolution: Seek out all garbage and recycle or dispose post haste for a healthier life and planet!
ADDENDUM: Protect coral reefs and save all the good fishies in the seas.
Helen Ang
September 15, 2009
🙂
sampalee
September 15, 2009
When we say science,most people will agree with what the word meant even though within it there are countless discipline such as physics,chenistry,biology,mathematics,etc.Science deals with the phenomenon of nature and how it works through acts of observations.Every thing observable through naked senses or with aids are all OBJECTS of AWARENESS.Theories[concepts] are formulated to explained,the behaviour and the various make-up of our physical world.As concepts differs each school believe their is correct and have to disbelieve[kafir]opposing concepts.That is how all our minds work,it can only think in dichotomy[binary at the simplest],without which mind become SILENT and thinking activities stops altogether.
As for religion,it is to determine the SOURCE of every item science
is working on which as mentioned are phenomenon[object of awareness]
As object of awareness can only manifest in the presense of awareness,All religions seek the source of the SUBJECT of awareness or the nuomena of the phenomena.As we embarked on the search with a THOUGHT[thought of seeking the truth or whatever],the though lies in the realm of objects of awareness as we can observe our thoughts.So in religion we try to pin down what is it that is aware of our thoughts,
As a knife cannot cut itself,the subject of awareness cannot be made into an objects that it can be aware.
This is where the various kithab assist mankind to intuite on the working of the minds[manas or intellect or EGO]To regonised the falseness of the EGO is the first step toward spiritual[absolute]truth.Why thus the kithab of ALL religions prompt us to Know Thyself,if
our CONCEPT of us as human entity is final.
Concept of GOD was introduced to removed all other concepts,yet GOD cannot remain as a concept[beyond believe and disbelieve]as the unchanging ONENESS devoured all dualities[the realm of mind and concepts]
SpeakUp
September 15, 2009
What is wrong with some Muslims today? Are they all crazy? One Muslim goes to an Indian temple and he is labeled a betrayer of the faith? Man … I think something is very wrong with the religion, yes I wrote that right. Why is it that the religion spawns so many sickos? No offence, I mean it as in the numbers of such sick people and not that the religion teaches them to be sickos.
UK/EU is having a major time with Muslims, what is happening to Malaysiakini with MCMC has happened in the UK with the local journalist who covered a seditious Fri sermon. What is happening? Maybe its true, somehow Islam has not achieved its true calling. Too many of its ‘deviant believers’ are messing the whole religion up causing Islamophobia. This is a sad situation.
Saiful
September 16, 2009
There’s nothing wrong with the religion, if what you mean is Islam. The problem is with the blind followers who know next to nothing about true teachings of Islam, but think they do, and led by what you called “deviant believers”, who are equally ignorant about the religion but think they are not.
Just as in other religions, Islam has its own share of good and bad people. In Christianity, for example, they have problems with people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Flywell, the Christian Zionists who work hand and glove with Zionist Israel to bring about armageddon – destruction of the world. Through their TV networks, they make tons of money selling religion. Pat Robertson owns a diamond mine in Zaire and Jerry Flywell owns a jet plane, courtesy of the Israeli government. 31 percent or 62 million Americans accept them as their leaders. (Read Grace Halsell’s “Forcing God’s Hand”.
The way out of this is for the Muslims to take their religion seriously and study it in earnest and come back to the true path that God provides.
SpeakUp
September 15, 2009
Note time mark 5:10 and 5:50 … MCMC is not far off are they?
Helen Ang
September 15, 2009
🙂
Helen Ang
September 15, 2009
The smiley meant for ttc
ttc
September 16, 2009
🙂 Howdee, Helen Ang.
Ta very much for your cheery smiley put here for me.
WE SAY YEAH! & NO TO ISA! 😛 AND HARIS FOR AG & RPK FOR IGP! GO FOR DSAI FOR PM & LKS FOR DPM & KIND WAN AZIZAH FOR HOME MINISTER.
2009 Resolution: Seek out all garbage and recycle or dispose post haste for a healthier life and planet!
ADDENDUM: Protect coral reefs and save all the good fishies in the seas.
kasim
September 16, 2009
We all know Lord Ganesha doesn’t actually exist, don’t we?
kasim,
For you, perhaps.
kasim
September 16, 2009
But what about for you? You’re a Muslim, so you must believe that there’s no such thing as a god with an elephant head. Believing in Islam precludes believing in other deities. So how can you love something that doesn’t exist?
kasim,
Remember the 99 names of God that Muslims always speak of as being in the Qur’an?
They are really attributes of the Almighty stated in the finest of terms, no?
Same, same, lah
oettinger
September 17, 2009
i have felt him. so, i wonder why you dont believe in him. did i ask you to pray to him? no i didnt
Saiful
September 16, 2009
Thank you for all the comments.
One thing unique about cyberspace is that it gives equal opportunity to the intelligent as well as the stupid to display their wisdom and, in the case of the stupid, their stupidity. I notice, except for one or two who talks sense and makes decent comments, the others are wanting in many respects. Some didn’t digest and understand what I wrote. Some, I suspect, didn’t even read it completely. Some have such a flair for English that I couldn’t make head or tail out of what they are trying to say. I remember one speaker, some time back, telling his audience: “there are people whom you don’t know whether they are intelligent or stupid because all this while they’ve been keeping quiet. But the moment they stand up and open their mouths, hey presto – they are stupid after all!”
The following are some excerpts of their comments and my response.
oettinger Says:
you are being personal my friend…… i would prefer not to engage myself in war of words with anyone in here, that includes you…. are you trying to comprehend and trying your utmost level best by protecting this fella here (Zainal)?.. what makes you think that he (Haris) will not be a good muslim at the end of time? are you saying its already the end of time for him that he cannot repent? bloody hell!
My response:
This is an excellent example of “superb” English, confusion and self contradiction. There is nothing personal between me and Haris. Haris doesn’t owe me a sen and neither do I owe him anything. I didn’t use obscenities. I didn’t use curse-words like you do. I was just arguing on point of principle and calling a spade, a spade – that’s all. As for defending Zainal, this is what I actually wrote:
“Haris, while I don’t fully subscribe to Zainal’s way of putting forth his ideas, I have to disagree with some of your own statements which, I think, need scrutiny…..”
Figure it out yourself, what I meant by that.
Whether Haris will be a good Muslim or not depends on how much effort he makes to change himself. “….Verily never will God change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). But when (once) God wills a people’s punishment, there can be no turning it back, nor will they find, besides Him, any to protect” – Holy Quran, Surah 13:11.
As for repentance, the door is still wide open for everyone of us, and will remain so until we are on our death throes. It is up to him.
“God accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy; for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, ‘Now have I repented indeed;’ nor of those who die rejecting Faith; for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.” – Holy Quran, Surah 4: 17, 18.
oettinger Says:
(1) i would like to ask you a question here. why do you darn well talk about punishment all the time? it looks like you are making islam a very violent religion. now i am thinking twice of whether should i continue to be a muslim or not.
(2) compassion comes in many forms my dear friend. do not threaten people with punishments. there is always a room for taubat or repentance. get it?
My Response:
(1)If at all you are a Muslim, you should know that Islam is not a “feel good religion” wherein you are given a free license to think and act as you please without regard to questions of right or wrong, moral or immoral, lawful or forbidden or, to put it another way, without any accountability to the Creator. There are divine rewards for those who do good and punishments for those who do wrong. So, don’t kid yourself into thinking that God is only capable of showing love, compassion and mercy for the good things that you do. He is also just as capable of meting out punishment for the wrongs that you do unless, of course, you have repented.
(2) No. I don’t threaten anybody with punishments. I am just reminding everybody, including myself, about God’s warning of punishment for those who go off the track. I can’t play God and say so-and-so will go to heaven or hell. It is the prerogative of the Almighty. He can send good men to hell and bad men to heaven and none of His creatures, including you and me, can complain. But don’t forget, one of His attributes is justice. On account of this we believe that good men and bad men – based on His standards, not ours, mind you – will respectively go to heaven and hell after they die. As for repentance, I’ve already answered your question.”
Bob Says:
Saiful, thank u 4 the very clear summary of a Moslem and his/her beliefs.
Curious though! Why does it matter to another human being whether a person is still a follower of his/her religion? That’s his/her problem.
My Response:
God says in the Holy Quran, Surah 2:256.
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.”
No one should be compelled to embrace any religion in the same way no one should compelled to join any political party, NGO, football club and so on. But once inside, one has to be loyal to one’s organization. Nobody is at liberty to go against any or all the rules and regulations with impunity. Action will definitely be taken against anyone who acts as a Trojan horse and work for the interest of an outside party opposed to it.
Once you are in Islam you are deemed to have made a covenant with Allah that you will believe Him and obey His commands, as outlined in my last thread, and cannot leave it at will. Harsh punishment awaits those who do. That’s the rule. This is a reminder to those toying with the idea of using Islam as a convenient way of getting whatever opportunities that becomes available by becoming Muslims, including marriage and then turn their back on it when things start to get sour.
If a Muslim were to leave Islam (becomes an apostate or murtad) then it is not his or her problem. It is the problem of the Muslim ummah (community). The Muslim ummah is just like a building. Apostates are by nature virus-like and, like white ants, they can never stay put. They will go all out and cause as much damage as possible to the faith of the ummah, through their bad mouthing and other activities, like what they are now doing. Unless they are stopped, the whole institution or community will collapse.
AnakBangsaMalaysia Says:
(1) At least Haris is honest about what he does….. (2) If Haris is breaking Muslim rules, at least he is doing good work to compensate for it…
(3) I spoke to a true Muslim man who observes all the rules that Muslims in our country are supposed to follow and this is what he told me, ” In Islam, we are not supposed to judge what others do. We are supposed to do what we believe is right.”… )
(4) I mean, why should you be paranoid about outside influences? If the umat are truly strong, then obviously they can overcome any obstacle with their faith intact and not having to result to hate mongering and violence.
My Response:
(1) Supposing somebody receives a kick-back of, say, RM 500 million out of a submarine deal that involves government money and he is honest enough to own up and boasts about his breaking the law, do you think he should be just let go, on account of his honesty, without being tried and receiving any punishment for it?
(2) Good work DOES NOT compensate anyone for breaking the law. Example: you killed someone and then do charity to compensate for the crime you committed. Do you think the law will still not go after you!
(3) Go back and ask this gentleman, the “true Muslim” to elaborate further on his statement and ask him to reveal the authority on which it is backed– the Holy Quran, the Hadith?
(4) Oh yes. Why should the government be paranoid about the H1N1 virus and take all the preventive actions. If your body is strong and your immune system is good, what is there to worry about?
sampalee Says:
(1)Can you please explain TAWHEED to the readers in your own words,
(2) if not I suggest you spent more time with a good tok guru[Nik Aziz is a good one]and KNOW THYSELF.
My Response:
(1) To explain Tawheed in detail, will require a course – not in just a few sentences. Maybe, some other time.
(2) No problem. I’ve done that. I always make an effort to increase my knowledge. To quote Imam As-Shafi’e: “The more I know, the more ignorant I feel.” It is only the chronically ignorant who think that they are the storehouses of knowledge.
Sal-a-din
September 16, 2009
Hey gang,
Zainal’s parents did a bad job.
Zainal’s now just another lost muslim with violent tendencies.
Why is Islam so misinterpreted by so many many people around our planet?
For one Haris there seems to be a hundred (or a thousand…gulp) Zainals.
Thanks mahathir. Thanks for nothin’.
sampalee
September 16, 2009
YES,there is ONLY ONE GOD and as such there simply cannot have threat or rivalry from other gods as the latter are non-existence and only imaginary.Dieties are symbolic of the many attributes of the ONE GOD and should be understood as such,mere symbols.
Saiful
September 17, 2009
That’s why Muslims are required to prostrate before, and to pray directly to, God without the intermediary of deities. Symbol or no symbol praying to a deity, is an act of associating or according a partner to God.
116. “God forgives not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgives whom He pleases other sins than this: one who joins other gods with God, has strayed far, far away (from the right). 117. (The Pagans) leaving Him, call but upon female deities: they call but upon Satan the persistent rebel! 118. God did curse him, but he said: “I will take of Your servants a portion marked off; 119. I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by God”. Whoever, forsaking God, takes Satan for a friend, has of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest. 120. Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but Satan’s promises are nothing but deception.” – Surah An Nisa (4).
So, while non-Muslims MUST be allowed to practice whatever they believe in without any hindrance, no Muslim who believes in Allah and His Prophet should participate in their rituals.
Saiful,
Please take heed of Surah 3 verse 64
Saiful
September 18, 2009
Surah 3 verse 64 says:
“Say: ‘O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God’.If then they turn back, say you: ‘Bear witness that we(at least) are Muslims (bowing to God’s Will)’.”
I stand corrected.
oettinger
September 17, 2009
wooooeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!
i see war in cyberspace now. guess what? our learned saiful comes back with bigger bombs and ammunition this time round. tell me, were you one of those actors in the movie called tombstone?
at the very least, i support haris for his cause. now, let me have a say in this. i may not be a tee-to-taler or austere in my habits but when i see haris in a glance, he reminds me of my late grandfather and both my granduncles.
now, haris, although he may have different perception about islam or any other religion for that matter, that is his business. further, its none of your ultimate entire business to say what he needs to do and not.
how did you somehow derive to the conclusion that i write english? first of all, before i proceed to write this any further, i would like to say a big thank you to you. i feel honoured for calling me a superb writer. indeed, i have been trying to be one here. feel free to help me out if you think i am not that good or perhaps vice versa. and what is so confusing about me? what is so self contradicting about me? you have not even seized from alphabets a to z, and you are saying i am self contradicting. hello, i know what i am talking about. i am talking in general and i am not being specific here. you are being personal and specific here. besides, this is not a forum to have our showdowns. now, in this instance, you have come a long way after a few days from your acrophobic slumber. i guess you must have an english tuition teacher teaching you how to respond. or perhaps, you’ve invited incognito plus the essence of replying mala fide. none of your replies are equal. you must be really a failure and i am sorry to say that. and that’s a fact. further, the ultimate desire of yours was to penalize all in here for your own glory and satisfaction, not to say you had awaken all the poor man of their slumber or perhaps having a game of poker overtures with topsy turvy cards lying all over the table with your aces showing around your opponents.
i seriously feel that you should be my religious teacher. if you have contemplated that haris is not a muslim, then why did you come in here in the first place to summarize your views and then purportedly or vividly or outrageously hitting him so hard that he has been the man behind the scene of bringing every single damn race in this country together and that includes you!!!!
i remind myself, i am a muslim. islam comes from the heart, not from your actions of praying 5 times a day, not from the clothes you wear. i wear tightly fitted jackets when i ride my bike. am i no longer a muslim? i ride a ducati 848. am i not a muslim? when i was sick and every single damn ustaz i visit gives me all the glory of hope. and their pengeras soaring high. and i visit a third invisible party to get well and soon enough, i got well. now am i not a muslim? did i offer my soul to the third party? how could you tell that? now you explain to me and to all of our friends in here my learned saiful. how did you manage to derive to conclusions about haris and may i seek your rendering answer as to whether are you in the position to play god?
i have seen and smell the noetic faculty of yours. indeed, you try to play god.
Saiful
September 17, 2009
I never knew that Haris looks like your late grandpa and grand uncles. I guess, you must have loved them very, very much. I am so……sorry!
oettinger
September 18, 2009
at least he has a heart like gold. unlike yours, full of filth
Saiful
September 17, 2009
Bob Says:
September 14, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Saiful, thank u 4 the very clear summary of a Moslem and his/her beliefs.
Curious though! Why does it matter to another human being whether a person is still a follower of his/her religion? That’s his/her problem.
I remember reading my old history books, that the Roman Catholic priests didnt want anyone to read the Bible. They read the so called Latin translations or even Aramic/ or old hebrew as u put it to the believers.
Once the Bible was translated into common language, these keepers of the law lost their power over men.
Anyway, if one takes say 3 or 4 different translations of the Bible (say the NIV, King James, American Standard Version, New Living Translation, etc.)
(U can look it up in the internet at BibleGateway.com, etc).
Then take a single verse, say John 14:6, compare the same verse in the different versions. You will find that it states the same thing. (So have you been lied to that the various English versions have different stories). Basically the translators go back to the earliest manuscripts and translate into modern English. Their work is checked and rechecked by committee of scholars who are experts in their field. All of them have to agree that the English translated sentence has the same meaning as the original manuscript.
These manuscripts are reviewed and checked each time an older manuscript is found. There has been a remarkable consistency in the authenticity of these documents. So please be aware that the translated works are similar to the original Old Hebrew or Aramic. A lot of the new Testament was written in the “global” language of the time, which was Greek although probably Jesus spoke in Aramic.
Try the comparison using the verses from John5:24 or John5:26 or John3:16.
Dont worry, reading the Bible or touching “Holy Water” will not make you a Christian or any less a Moslem. Just like the chap Mahathir who commented, the Koran does not recognize other religions as equals, it merely does not want its followers to ridicule other religions, so that it in turn is not ridiculed by others. This is the old “eye 4 an eye thingy”. One bunch of people carry a cow head, another bunch carries some other head, then all heads get broken, bloody and chopped off. The only happy people will be those who sell coffins…
The orginal Injiil, which Muslims must believe in, was revealed to Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) in Aramaic. It was the Word of God and contained no discrepancy. From Aramaic into Latin, later into English and from English (presently the master copy) it is translated into the various world languages, By right, such translations must have the original Aramaic printed alongside it so that a bilingual conversant both in Aramaic and the vernacular can quickly and easily spot any mistake or discrepancy that occurs. But this was not to be, because Aramaic language is dead and gone. And so we have to depend on the master copy, English, which itself is a translation.
From my personal experience as a translator I know translations has a way of getting corrupted. You can conduct a simple test. Type out three or four paragraphs in English on a piece of paper. Have it translated into French and keep the original. After that have the French translated into German and from German to Dutch and from Dutch to Spanish and from Spanish back into English. Take the last translation in English and compare it with the original that you have kept. You will be surprised at how the translations can get corrupted in the process.
I am not so worried about discrepancies in different versions of the Bible. Rather I am concerned about discrepancies within the SAME version of the Bible. Just to give you one example from so many I’ve picked up from my copy of the Bible – Authorized (King James) Version.
Children are punished for the sin of the parents:
Isaiah 14:21
“Prepare slaughter of his children for the inequity of their fathers……”
Exodus 34:7
“…..and that by no means clear the guilty; visiting the inequity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and the fourth generation.”
Children are NOT punished for the sin of their parents.
Deuteronomy 24:15
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Ezekiel 18:20
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the inequity of the father, neither shall the father bear the inequity of the son………”
If the Bible is the Word of God then God would have protected it from such discrepancies in the same way as God has protected the Holy Quran. Maybe, you would say, this was due to more than one scribe being involved in the writing. But even then God should have given the same inspiration to each of them.
On the other hand, the Holy Quran today is still in the original Arabic in which it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is not the product of the Prophet’s imagination or literary skill. He didn’t go to school. He couldn’t even read or write. So it must be from God Himself. God has protected it to the extent that not a word, not even a letter is misplaced. There has been, however, attempts to tamper with the Holy Quran but all failed thanks to thousands of ‘huffaz’ around the world who committed the whole Quran to memory were quick to spot the mischief.
So until and unless the original Aramaic is produced, there is no way to say the present day Bible is 100 percent Word of God.
anna brella
September 17, 2009
An insightful and thought-provoking quote from Elizabeth Barrett Browning:
“Earth’s crammed with heaven, And every common bush afire with God; But only he who sees, takes off his shoes – The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries.”
But only he/she who sees, takes off his/her shoes.
Amen and Amin and Shalom and various other Salutations to that simple Truth!
“Imagine Power To The People” John Lennon.
orangtakut
September 17, 2009
Bro Haris,
You are spot on. All religions (the ‘main stream’ one anyway) teach love, compassion, self and mutual respect for fellow humans, etc.
Someone once said, all human are inherently good. It is the guidance we seek in religion so that we do not deviate from the true path to wisdom.
One need to open their minds and seek the truth instead of just following the faith (any religion) blindly.
Peace be with you bro.
orangtakut,
Peace be with you, too, bro.
Saiful
September 17, 2009
orangtakut Says:
“One need to open their minds and seek the truth instead of just following the faith (any religion) blindly.”
Agreed 100%.
“And Satan will say when the matter is decided: ‘It was God Who gave you a promise of Truth: I too promised, but failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you, but you listened to me: then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can you listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with God. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.” Surah Ibrahim (14):22.
“And you shall (must) know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32
sampalee
September 17, 2009
Faith means one have Absolute Trust that the kithab contain and reveal the Truth.So we must embark on our journey throgh the kithab with faith[faith is taking on without knowing and is both blind and not blind]
As one read the kithab with ernesty and become conversent with the various pointers[mainly metaphors and allegory]One may have a glimpse on the guidance being provided in the reading itself.When one reach the full realisation,there is only awareness it is the GRACE of Tuhan,without which our struggles will have been futile.We come to understand Inshaallah DIRECTLY.
Please return to religions enmssse as it is the ONLY salvation for mankind.
sang kancil
September 17, 2009
All these toing and froing from the various commenters boils down to one thing and one thing only.
RELIGION IS A PRIVATE AFFAIR BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD AND NOBODY ELSE.
Why should anybody be such nosey about other private business. I will always respect you religion and your god. Why cant you be respectful of mine?
I agree whole heartedly with Abang Haris. A towering human being and Malaysian.
Hopeful
September 17, 2009
You have my greatest respect. bro Haris. I can see from the contents of your post here that you are full of love and comnpassion. That’s why you can give Love to others e.g. like Zainal. I said the same to a friend “I practise all that is good and beautiful.”
My religion is LOVEism and I am learning to practise it more and more. Whatever religion or no religion we practise, just go back to basics – LOVE. ‘God’ is all loving. Nothing less than that!
…and I am learning from Haris, and many others too. Love is the way forward if we want a peaceful & healed planet.
May peace and love be upon all.
Thanks again, bro Haris.
Saiful
September 18, 2009
A good and practicing Muslim is one who maintains both the vertical and the horizontal relationship well.
Vertical relationship means his personal relationship with God such as praying and fasting. It remains personal as long as he doesn’t affect others by what he does or he doesn’t do. Fasting, for example, is something personal between him and God, something that he can’t pretend to be doing, something that only he and God knows. But if he doesn’t fast – smoking or drinking during fasting month – in front of others who do, then it is no longer personal. It becomes the concern of the society.
Horizontal relationship, on the other hand, is his relationship with his fellow creatures: his family; members of his society – non-Muslims included; the environment – the animals, the plants, the hills, the mountains, the rivers, the seas and the oceans and so on.
These two relationships – vertical and horizontal – are akin to subjects in an examination, both of which must be passed. Failing one means failing the whole exam.
So, in a situation where a person is good at fasting and praying but doesn’t hesitate to abuse his powers and commit injustices to others, makes the hills bald to get his extra million, he is definitely a failure as a Muslim. On the other hand, if he is kind and charitable, he stands up to injustices and fights for the down-trodden but doesn’t keep his prayer and fasting, he is also a failure as a Muslim. Both will be hauled up by Allah on the Day of Judgment and made to account for their acts of commissions and omissions.
It is unfortunate that, where Islamic education is concerned, the National Education Policy has generally failed to produce good quality Muslims – the focus being simply confined to enable students to perform their prayers, recite their doa’s and have the best voices for the Quranic competition (musabaqah).
As a result, you see a lot of Muslims around performing their prayers , robot-like, without understanding the inherent messages therein and translating those messages into their daily lives. What are the messages?
In the case of congregational prayers, for example, you need to have one imam (leader) and one or more makmum (followers). The imam must be better qualified in terms of his piety, his ability to recite Quranic passages, having ablution, and his acceptance by his followers. If ever he should become disqualified such as breaking wind and thus nullifies his ablution he would willingly leave the ‘sajadah’ and lets somebody else behind him take over. He doesn’t have to wait for anybody to kick his butt to do that!
Now, every society needs a leader and that leader must be head and shoulders above everybody else in terms of his ability, integrity, honesty and sense of justice. Should he become disqualified on account of corruption or any other scandal, for example, he should take the cue from the imam and leave quietly. There is no need to hold an EGM and have the tables and chairs thrown at him.
But what happens is some of our leaders are like comb of bananas who refuse to come down until you cut the tree. Despite the scandals all around them, they remain poker faced and say: “I am innocent until proven guilty” and of course, they’ll have the courts to confirm their innocence.
They are definitely not good and practicing Muslims. But then, they didn’t come parachuting down from the sky. It is we who have put them where they are.
Saiful
September 19, 2009
Saiful Says:
September 17, 2009 at 1:49 pm
I never knew that Haris looks like your late grandpa and grand uncles. I guess, you must have loved them very, very much. I am so……sorry!
Reply
*
oettinger Says:
September 18, 2009 at 8:14 pm
at least he has a heart like gold. unlike yours, full of filth
——————————–
I have already said,
“I remember one speaker, some time back, telling his audience: ‘there are people whom you don’t know whether they are intelligent or stupid because all this while they’ve been keeping quiet. But the moment they stand up and open their mouths, hey presto – they are stupid after all!'”
Now, as a strong (I won’t say fanatical) disciple of Haris, do you have any idea which category you belong to?
son of goddess
September 27, 2009
Now i realized the difference of what Tok Guru Nik Aziz said earlier about ISLAM..something like ISLAM Plastic.
You has helped to clear the air.
A big thanks to you, SIR Haris.
You are a man of such high wisdom.
May Allah blessed us all..
May Lord Ganesh blessed us all..
May the Cosmic Mother blessed us all..
Morning Dew
October 1, 2009
Haris,
Your visit, with other muslims, to the hindu temple was a courageous act. About a century or so ago a hindu also undertook the courageous act of visiting a mosque and then becoming a muslim. He went through everything that a muslim and finally he had reached stabilisation of his spiritual attainment and insights proclaimed that islam indeed teaches very good spiritual means and values to gain God realisation.
Ven. Ramakrishna was a highly spiritual hindu and has great influence within the hindu community and he had a vision that one day hindus and muslims would fight and sought to harm each other. His shining example stood as a beacon to guide hindus and muslims during such times.
Zainal has to be understood and loved and not demonised.
Murai77
October 5, 2009
I wonder sir, if you can also put pictures of you visiting Masjid as to promote the equality among all religion.
perhaps, Subuh?or Zuhr? Asr? or Meghrib? or maybe Isya’?good if you can ‘Imarah’ Mesjid first before your further campaign.
Salam…
Murai77,
Next I ‘visit’ a mosque, will try annd oblige