“And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet” – The Book of Exodus, Chapter 7, verse 1, The Holy Bible.
Now, you can read this verse in many ways.
Literally, too, if you wished, and no one could fault you if you imagined Moses walking up to Pharaoh and saying, “I am your Lord. Do as I bid you do”.
I had wanted to stay away from this whole apostasy controversy sparked off by Nurul’s statements at a recent forum as we have bigger and more important battles to fight, but Malaysiakini’s report today really pissed me off.
This UMNO wolf in PAS sheepskin contends that what Nurul said about there being ‘ “no compulsion in religion” was tantamount to giving religious freedom to Malay Muslims as the verse which she quoted can only be applied to non-Muslims’.
The verse can only be applied to non-Muslims?
Let’s look at the verse again.
“There shall be no compulsion in religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in idols and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And God is Hearing and Knowing” – Chapter 2 verse 256, Holy Qur’an.
Now. like the verse in Exodus, you can read this in many ways, too, but if you’re not going to do a literal read, Nash, and read into it something that’s not there, you, oh scholarly one, ought to be mindful of this verse.
“So woe to those who write with their own hands, then say, “This is from God ,” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn” – Chapter 2 verse 79, Holy Qur’an.
Whilst we’re on the scriptures, oh scholarly one, since you say Muslims have no choice, pray tell us, who was God addressing in the following verses, marked in red?
“And whoever desires other than Islam as religion, never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. How shall God guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and had witnessed that the Messenger is true and clear signs had come to them? And God does not guide the wrongdoing people. For those, their recompense will be that upon them is the curse of God and the angels and the people, all together, abiding eternally therein. The punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved. Except for those who repent after that and correct themselves. For indeed, God is Forgiving and Merciful. Indeed, those who reject the message after their belief and then increase in disbelief – never will their feigned repentance be accepted, and they are the ones astray” – Chapter 3, verses 85 to 90, Holy Qur’an.
Who, oh scholarly one, is God addressing in the words marked in red?
Seems to me that God was addressing those who had believed and bore witness to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and then were now professing unbelief.
No?
And seems to me God was saying He would take back those who sincerely repented but not the others.
And that means they had a choice, no?
Oh, scholarly one?
Now, oh scholarly one, you don’t have to answer this if you can produce a licence such as was given to Moses way back in the days of Exodus, in which event I’ll give you a Hi-5, prostrate before you and do a 2 : 131. ( For the non-scholars like me, the Qur’an narrates that God asked Abraham if the latter would submit to the former. In Chapter 2, verse 131 [ hence 2:131], Abraham is said to have replied : “I submit to the Lord of the Worlds” ).
If you cant produce that licence, and refuse to say who is referred to in the words marked out in red above, I am commanded by God in Chapter 6 verse 148, Holy Qur’an to say to you :
“Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying”.
Steven Ong
November 11, 2012
Haris,
What that verse in Exodus 7:1 really means is that Moses’s god promised him that he will help Moses overcome the Pharaoh and not really the Pharaoh’s lord or king.
Its very clear in the Quran that verses says freedom of religion or faith but those who are Muslims will be rewarded hereafter.
But if the Quran is to be trusted , Verse 4:89 says that one should slay the apostates? Your explanation is most welcome at this time in Malaysia.
Steven,
I am not in doubt as to what Exodus 7 : 1 means. I merely pointed out that if someone took it literally, he could not be faulted.
Please re-read 4:89. In my understanding, it is not alluding to apostates, but infiltrators into the faith who were there to cause mischief.
In my reading of the Holy Qur’an, I have not seen a single verse that confers upon man authority to inflict any punishment for apostasy. I would go so far as to say that, in my understanding, apostasy from true faith, in any faith system, for that matter, does not occur. I will further elaboration on this after we have taken Putrajaya
Nana Kassim
November 11, 2012
Steven, hope this response to a comment on Surah 4:89 helps.
Surah 4:89 acknowledges that the non-believers would dearly like the Believers to reject Faith. It therefore advises Believers not to accept as allies those who try to make them reject Faith. And if the non-believers turn on the Believers with aggression to make the Believers reject Faith, then it is justified for the Believers to seize and kill them.
The Surah doesn’t say that a non-believer is an enemy; only those who try to make you leave Faith are your enemies.
If you are willing to leave your Faith, then you can’t claim to have faith in the first place. If your Faith is strong, then reflect it in your lifestyle. If your lifestyle doesn’t reflect your Faith, is it justified that you use man-made laws to stop others from judging your Faith?
Taipan
November 11, 2012
Oh scholarly one! Much as I tried to differentiate these words written in the Holy Qur’an and your definitions of them, I have come to the conclusion that you deserved my middle finger and a big kick in the ass. You are nothing but a fraud!
pak yeh
November 11, 2012
Nasha and all Ulamas must show Quranic proof that “there is no compulsion in religion, is only applicable to non Muslims.
They can never proof it using the Quran. All they can do is show hadis as proof,
But Allah had warned. “Some people use lahwal hadis(vain/fa;se hadis), to mislead others from Allah’s path, without knowledge, and make a mockery of it(Allah’s path/Islam).” Quran 31:6
Ulamas are sinful as hell, for contradicting Quran 2:256, by using the hadis to allow compulsion in religion/killing of the apostate.
Read more
http://warongpakyeh.blogspot.com/2012/11/nurul-izzah-kebebasan-beragama-quran2256.html
sputjam
November 11, 2012
athe muslims uses the term “God is great” when they pray. But does anyone of them realise that “Allah-hu-akbar” was never used in the koran?
Paul WarrenPaul Warren
November 11, 2012
Hey Nash only said what he said for a quick hard on la…why quote him so much holy verses? After reading this he is going to come up with something else for the next hard on.
bigjoe99
November 11, 2012
Why so complicated? We all know the Quran does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apotasy – BUT the Hadith does.. So its all comes down to debating Hadith, Islamic Jurisprudence in Islam. I am all for Malaysia leading cutting edge Islamic scholarship but honestly do we need to touch on this NOW when WE have our own very mundane problem – UMNO/BN is simply UNLISLAMIC by the Quran in the first place?
daniel tan kah beng
November 11, 2012
Let the rakyat have peace and the truth, and we go to take over the Putrajaya. Dont hv to be fool by those whom just know how to be fools, the fools never will understand the truth, until one day when it came to their senses, it will.
I will pray for the mercy of God in this land , we will be free to rule by the truth and wisdom.
The days had come its people (rakyat) must be free from all lies, deception and illusion.
“Kebenaran” will rain forever !
KTWong87
November 11, 2012
It is bad enough that in the secular world, various low-life scum-bags (and their partners-in-crime being certain supposed-to-be newspapers and other media) twist and mangle what people say or the facts related to issues.
But surely it must be much worse when golks try to do the same twisting and mangling with religious texts? Like the Quran for instance? What is the penalty for such wrongdoing?
And if the culprit is an uztaz / ulama?
Admiral Tojo
November 11, 2012
Ah, back to the confusion between the difference of THE ARAB RELIGION OF DISBELIEVE and ISLAM as per Quran. Do visit mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com and free yourself from Arab imposed SLAVERY. In ISLAM as per Quran, there is absolute freedom of belief, very personal between you and the Creator, without relevance and the need to refer to Rabbiis,Priests,Monks, JAIS,MAIS and all man made institutions. Wake up and stop being DUMB.
Shalom
Hawkeye Jack
November 12, 2012
rightly so said by the Admiral.
Invictus
November 11, 2012
Mkini’s reported that the Home Minister said : “PKR vice-president Nurul Izzah Anwar’s statement that religious freedom applied to Malays as well has been described by the Home Minister as insensitive and causing public anger……tantamount to politicising religious belief and making religion a pawn”.
Was he dropped on his head when he was a baby?
ken
November 11, 2012
Read “Mental Bondage in the name of God” by Aidid Safar – word press Aidid Safar’s website. The book will open up the minds of the Muslims and non-Muslims.
mmc
November 12, 2012
no better word to describe his wolf.
he has sold his soul to UMNO. what else do you expect him to say.
Leonard
November 12, 2012
Bang, did you read RPK’s “Malays must wake up konon”? with all the Malays, non-Malays, Malays, non-Malays, Malays, non-Malays, (on and on) bullshits ? and at the same time, curtailing feed backs to build his agenda ? Is he not also trying to play “master of minds” ?
Mad Scientist
November 12, 2012
Proof ? They can never provide any proof. The Quran is likely their proof.
And then ask you if you understand it, and then tell you do not not understand it, they have the understanding as they are “scholars”. And only their understanding is right, and they have millions who support them.
A french friend told me once, as a gift, there is a french saying, he says.
“Even if millions say of something, it does not mean they are right.”
And this is very true of the Islamic world.
flyer168
November 12, 2012
Haris,
Yes indeed.
“What is destined will reach you, even if it be underneath two mountains. What is not destined, will not reach you, even if it be between your two lips!” – An Arabic proverb
Shalom.
annabrella
November 12, 2012
It is hard for any one to suffer fools at any time so it must be very hard indeed for rational people like you, Haris, to keep on saying the bleeding obvious to those who are clearly cretins or raving lunatics or who are more likely to be using the old style writings of mainly abstract principles and allegorical spiritual teachings of the great religions either ignorantly or manipulatively for their own non-spiritual ends.
My cynical view on the matter is that political power and the rich pickings of cash that political power can lead to are really why a poor silent God (or the conceptual ideal of God) became so attractive so as to be hijacked by the left, right and centre from since time immemorial and turned into the big money-spinner it became and still is. I am pretty certain the wealth of the multi-nationals would pale into insignificance by comparison if we could see the true size of all revenues, assets and cash generated each year from the sum total of all the world’s God-related businesses. But we won’t know of course as that’s not something spoken about generally as that’s “not allowed”. That’s why I feel sorry for this beautiful spiritual Almighty Being who is said to be ever merciful to one and all and who is the way to real peace, truth and compassion. All I see everywhere in today’s world is this Almighty being falsified left, right and centre by hypocrites or ignoramuses.
The politics and associated wealth creation opportunities are also why I suppose true teachers/sages of religious faiths who do not speak with forked-tongues and who cannot be gagged or bought for cash or BIKs to tell fibs about their religious faiths/convictions are normally singled out to be snuffed out, killed off or assassinated politically so that they cannot use their simple and yet powerful words/sword of truth to upset the interconnected global apple carts and gravy trains of the controlling powers that are behind the political-business money-spinning industrial complex partnership of activities which prop up many political and falsely religious livelihoods and comfortable material lifestyles.
So I guess the way forward to combat such sickening falsehoods and wasting of time and one’s energy with fools and nutters from both the falsely political and falsely religious spectrums is to turn more to the political ideal of secular democracy for one’s political governance and to also turn more to one’s personal faith through a questioning and open minded approach so one’s faith becomes better grounded and more solidly anchored on one’s reasoned convictions so one can seek and find one’s Almighty and peace of mind and salvation here, and in the hereafter s such a speculative place exists in some dimension somewhere.
So may your God bless you for constantly standing up to fools, nutters and religious politicians who all go out of their way to confuse, confound and help create religious strife which then get conveniently or stupidly exploited by incompetent or manipulative power-hungry politicians into destructive and costly wars which profit-based businesses can then help wage with their expensive war machinery and weapons of mass destruction and all of it done in your name, my name, everyone else’s names and more poignantly, in the name of God and God’s Peace.
“Imagine Power To The People” John Lennon.
Taipan
November 12, 2012
Most inspiring, annabrella!
When you have men taking the roles of God, there is this tendency to deviate from what that is truth and what that is not or even half truth for that matter. Since everything is a reflection of our minds, everything can be changed by our minds. No one and nothing can free us but our own understandings! Allow me to share this equally inspiring words for those who care to read:-
” I think we all have a little voice inside us that will guide us ….. if we shut out all the noise and clutter from our lives and listen to that voice, it will tell us the right thing to do.” ~ Christopher Reeve.
annabrella
November 13, 2012
Taipan:
Am always encouraged to hear another rational voice reach out over the depressing Malaysian clamour of the ten thousand things of constant immutable nonsense, obvious irrelevance and continuing, mind-numbing pointlessness.
Agree Pak Lah was spot on when he said “first world infrastructure, third world mentality”. Where is he now btw? Still fishing?
I miss Christopher Reeve too. He was truly an awe-inspiring Superman both on and off screen with that trademark quiet fortitude of his. May he rest in peace forever.
“Imagine Power To The People” John Lennon.
awang bengkok awang selamat
November 12, 2012
n who are u haris,,,when u judge others in islamic point of view,,,please study da usl fiqh,..n den u will understand da nurul and nash statement,,,
Another Anak Bangsa Malaysia
November 13, 2012
Hey ABAS,
You’ve got all the answers because you have “studied” the subject matter, right?
I guess you would like us to vote you as our resident scholar and no other should speak as you will tell the rest of us what to think, eh?
Or even better for you, let’s not worry about the voting 🙂 You can supply all the necessary titles for yourself.
Ellese
November 12, 2012
You look at haris write and you know he is selective. There’s a corpus of knowledge pertaining to this issue. Either haris is ignorant or purely spinning, his write blatantly disregard the overwhelming views of Muslims not only in Malaysia but worldwide on this issue. The fact of the matter Nash’s view on freedom of choice is within the overwhelming view. So please be mindful of the fact that haris view represents a minority view to say the least. Many even hold the minority’s views as repugnant.
So don’t be selective haris. People can even do a search on Wikipedia and see how much you’ve purposely missed out. Anyway in arguing please follow the epistemology of usul fiqh. Check the asbab as well. It’s was addressed to Muslims that you cannot force non Muslims to submit to Islam. See ibn kathir. See also ayahs before and after the verse. How do you justify that this ayah allows freedom to convert for Muslims? And if you say there’s no compulsion for Muslims how do you justify other punishments for non observance?
I get irritated with people like you just as much you’re irritated with Nash. You previously pretended to take high moral ground but your act to deface and vandalize public property shows who you are. A person who justifies means be it illegal to achieve an end. No different from Mahathir.
Hawkeye Jack
November 12, 2012
hahaha Mr pooper popping up all over with his pooping views and getting irritated too :-))
Another Anak Bangsa Malaysia
November 13, 2012
Hey Ellese,
Even if Haris was selective, ignorant and spinning, I would still prefer his selectivity, his ignorance and his spinning to those views which blindly follow that which went before.
Oh yes, about that high moral ground you were talking about and how you object to defacing and vandalizing public property I do wonder how such “heinous” acts compare to the corruption and nepotism which abound in Malaysia.
Personally, I don’t believe Malaysia has the luxury of taking her time in attending to the micro stuff first whilst the macro stuff is bringing down the proverbial walls around our ears, so to speak.
From the way you write, you seem to have put some thought into the matter so I look forward to your perspective on addressing some of the more curly problems I have seen in my country, Malaysia.
Another Anak Bangsa Malaysia
November 12, 2012
Haris,
As an atheist, I have chosen to stay out of the current debate on religion for the obvious reason that even if a person chooses to believe in pink porcupines wearing tutus cavorting with polka-dotted unicorns, so be it, AS LONG AS EVERYBODY HAS A GOOD TIME AND NOBODY GETS HURT!!
I am pretty sure that the UMNO-brand Muslims would love to demonstrate how holy they are, thereby gaining a box seat in Heaven, but the sad reality is that when I read their statements in this matter, I see only the glaring hypocrisy – mind you, I was really trying to be generous to the UMNO-brand Muslims by giving them huge leeward in their interpretation of Islam. My main concern was the disparity between their words and their actions.
Yes, it’ll be rough sailing for Nurul Izzah for the next couple of days, but I think she is tough enough and she has more than enough support to see her thru this. The absurdity of the situation will soon dawn on the UMNO-brand Muslims.
Strangely, my thoughts are with those poor UMNO-brand Muslims because every time they open their mouths to condemn others for not following the “rules and regulations”, they seem, to me, somewhat uncomfortable. It is almost as though they know that they are just as guilty as themselves – if not more!!
shakuntala
November 12, 2012
“‘So many Gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
Is all the sad World needs”.
Many thanks Haris for taking us on this Godly journey,which is never ending. Interesting exercise, at a time of the year when we pray for Light to take over darkness,
This Nash,by the way, has by now decided not to answer you, he wants to stick to his gang thinking. As an individual and privately he may think like you and all of us……
wandererAUS
November 12, 2012
Going by Nasharudin Mat Isa contention, Muslims are born without a brain attached to the head? What is the bloody use to be a Muslim by name and not a practising one…like most UMNO Muslim pretenders!! Pity those who are subjected themselves to man made laws. I will, with my generosity give credit to this “holely man” for his audacity to come out with a new twisted version in the holy book….an energized moron paid to wipe his UMNO a@$holes!
Sam
November 12, 2012
Haris, old chap, you sound really pissed off. Ellese accuses you of being “selective”. As if being “selective” is a negative trait unique to Haris? Sheesh! How do folks come up with these superfluous arguments.
I do hope the “nons” stay clear of this latest storm-in-a-teacup or it may turn out to be the big one that’s going to do a kamikaze on ABU and Pakatan (sure hope not). I saw the extra wide grin on Nong cik’s face last Saturday as he gave out goodies in Bangsar, so my heart goes out for darling Nurul. Frankly, I can’t see how you guys are going to get past this without getting caught in the crossfire.
Good luck and take care bro.
“There is nothing greater worth fighting for than the restoration of one’s own soul.”
shakuntala
November 13, 2012
Ellese …try to be cool. You seem to be reaching boiling point. I know religion is personal, therefore it always is emotional, but views can be expressed and whether Haris’s represents a minority view point is not important. It is his view viz a viz Nash’s……no reason for you to cast aspersions on Haris, with other adjectives, just because he gave his point of view..on this aspect of religion…
Times are a changing Ms Ellese, very soon overwhelming majority views may also shrink to a very small number. A great number of Muslims are in Western countries today and they quite enjoy the freedom and the convenience of enlightened thought. More are also waiting for a chance to get there.
Please believe that the Renaissance was the work of God himself to tell us that we need to adapt to changing times. If not for this great swathe of a cultural and intellectual movement, bringing with it a lot of good, mankind would not be as progressive, generous, caring and sharing with ideas and resources, as it is today.
Ellese
November 15, 2012
I wrote something earlier but somehow it was not published. So let me rewrite.
When one is selective it means one is unfair. So we condemn selective persecution because it’s unfair and creates injustices. This is the premise of haris fight against bn.
So let me elaborate. Haris either knew the majority views or doesn’t know about it. I don’t believe it’s the latter coz it implies he is ignorant, lazy to read or even stupid. He is not any of those coz he’s a smart lawyer. You see from the argument.
So let’s say he knows about it. When he read Nash hitting his dear Nurul he went berserk. Look at the write and words use. He use selective verses of the Quran to potray Nash as stupid and unthinking Muslims. And thus creates an unfair perception especially on those gullible above. But can you imagine the other side of the majority Muslims worldwide who believes apostacy as part of hudud. They think it’s haris who is stupid not knowing the religion. This view is not UMNO’s view but Muslims worldwide. Admittedly Umno has motive on nurul, but nurul actually expressed that Muslims can change religion. Why is this said? It was not necessary. To keep the issue down nurul has just to apologise and put Umno in a box. Coz an apology or repentance must be accepted. Umno must accept that coz there’s no moral highground after this. If they pursue on hitting nurul people will say that nurul has apologized and retracted and if Allah swt can accept that Umno has no business to further humiliate her. PAS would have strengthened its side in the rural area.
Now back to the write by haris, we cannot complain about injustice when we practice injustice as our means. Be fair and reasonable all the time. It matters not what others do, but we must be firmed in our belief and principles.
Vietcong
November 15, 2012
Malaysia can only expect changes once the mindset of her people change….Nothing will change if UMNO is still ruling and status quo is the way forward as fear had been implanted since indipendance.
Mad Scientist
November 17, 2012
these verses versus verses thing is rather silly.
first one quotes a verse ( from quran or bible or whatever ) and then the other quotes the same verse but interprets it differently.
and then they fight until the cows come home. that is why i say it is silly.
to simplify matters, it is either one believes in freedom or not. it has nothing to do with religion, but your thoughts may be influenced by religion.
if you believe in freedom you will support nurul.
if you don’t ( like the majority of malays perhaps, who believe we must follow gods commands or orders, whatever that is ) then you will cream and hate nurul.
at the end of the day, if you are authoritarian/religious/theocratic type, you will not believe in freedom. and nothing will change your mind.
there is really no need for versus vs versus.
i happen to believe we are all born free.
and so i say no to religious laws.
Mad Scientist
November 17, 2012
this is the whole trouble with religion. people fight because of god.
if people believe in freedom, then they would not impose their beliefs on others.
imposing beliefs should be banned.
religion should be allowed only on personal basis, not something a government should handle, and certainly not used to govern society because it will never work. we are beings with brains.
the real question begging for an answer is , why are some people so hot and angry when some others are free or liberated ? i suspect because they are not enjoying their life in prison.
and those who “dakwah” it is because they are enjoying their prison, and believes they belong in prison, but soon they will join the “hot and angry” ones above, especially when they see us partying.
that’s life.