I read with some amusement some of the comments that propose that the burden rests on the shoulders of ex-PKR sec-gen Salehuddin to prove his assertion that the now much talked-about letter of 2nd February, 2009 said to have been signed by Salehuddin and despatched to Jenapala to notify the latter of his sacking from the party, is a forgery.
Please understand that Salehuddin’s assertion is negative in nature.
Salehuddin is effectively saying that he did not sign the letter.
“I did not sign the letter”, is a negative assertion.
How do you prove an ‘I did not’ assertion?
How do you prove an ‘I did not sodomise Saiful’ assertion?
Sure, an alibi defence to show that you were not at the scene of the crime at the material time, or that there are witnesses who can confirm to be with you at the time of the alleged offence would exonerate you of the charge, but should you be put to this proof without the accuser first bearing the burden of making out a prima facie case?
The law, as I understand it, places the burden on he who asserts the positive, to prove the positive.
So he who asserts ‘You did sodomise Saiful’, bears the burden to prove the fact of the sodomy.
As does he who asserts that Salehuddin did sign the letter.
The People's Parliament 
sensible guy
November 27, 2010
Then in what area of proof or situation as when one actually signs the letter ( assuming Salehudin did ) and then now deny that he ( Salehudin ) signed it ?
In other words, that Salehudin now lie that he did not sign it ?
Isn’t that entirely possible ?
Since he asserts that he din not sign it, surely the burden of proof is upon him?
Mr. Mickey
November 28, 2010
It’s essentially a merry-go-round, just like the Anwar-Saiful case.
A accuses B of doing something. B denies.
Instead of having A proving that B did something, the whole thing turns into B having to prove that he did not do that “something” he has been accused of.
So next time when the government accuses you of stealing, or even raping or murdering, it won’t be the government who has to prove that you did something.
Rather, it will be YOU who have to prove that you are innocent of the crime.
Sick, isn’t it?
albert Teoh
November 27, 2010
Infact that is what is happening now to Anwar’s sodomy 2 case, as I understand it. He needs to prove that he did not sodomise Saiful !
It would now appear that Salehuddin has a serious problem and has to prove likewise that he did not sigh the letter !
LOL !
confused
November 27, 2010
This is interesting.
In Lingam’s famous video case, if I remember correctly witness Mahathir claimed he cannot remember what happened. If that be the case can anybody in another trial just plead cannot remember and that is the end of story ?
Similarly Salehuddin can say he cannot remember signing this letter and go a step further and say he din not sign it ( genuine memory lapse ). Or in scenario 2 even tho he signed it, now deviously claims he did not sign it, meaning he now tells a lie.
Hope my little knowledge is not too dangerous ! 🙂
Jong
November 27, 2010
…likewise how to prove “Anwar is God’s gift to Malaysians”? And they were all clapping LOL!!! adoi perot sakit lah!
wandererAUS
November 27, 2010
The Chinese has a proverb, “If you save a man from death, you bear the responsibility to keep him alive until, inevitable death closes on him”. As an Opposition supporter, I felt the responsibility falls on our shoulders, until, we achieve our goal…to rid the UMNO/BN corrupted scums of the earth from Putrajaya. Divided we fall!!
Joseph
November 27, 2010
This so called leaders inPKR are a bunch of liars.
Just like UMNO they only know how to scream this
and that but can not proved to us convincingly.
Question, what happen to Malaysia Today. I think its 3 or 4 days cannot access site.
mimosa
November 28, 2010
Hi Joseph
I have no problem with accessing M2Day.
Warga Malaysia
November 27, 2010
Sallehuddin is a turncoat Full Stop.
Mr. Mickey
November 28, 2010
… and so it goes
Richards
November 28, 2010
this is the standard reply that is turning PKR into a laughing stock. instead of looking inward to correct weaknesses, PKR go on blame others rampage, even when their own kitchen sink is leaking.
PKR is a mockery, an insult to Malaysian politics.
ghkok
December 2, 2010
By the way, PKR just concluded the most audicious and ambitious party elections in the history of msian politics. In my opinion, it is breathtakingly successful. It DOESN’T look to me like a party that is “an insult to msian politics”.
vasantha
November 28, 2010
Angels fear to thread where fools rush in. I rest my case.
lineclear
November 28, 2010
Hi,
Tried Law that “He who asserts “fraud”, bears the burden to prove the fraud”.rgds
Ibrahim
November 28, 2010
So Anwar bears the burden to prove the sodomy fraud???? This is PKR at highest hipocracy.
charleskiwi
November 28, 2010
AI is trying so very hard to discontinue and or delay the trial and that is all he is doing.
He is even going out of Malaysia to get the internal politicians in doing so of course
without telling them that he was the one to have hired the young useless bum, to be his
coffee boy that he took abroad so often just to make him his daily cup of ‘coffee’.
The 5 star hotels they stayed did not have anyone to make him his daily cups of coffee,
not to mention it was so so much cheaper, now even Karpal is trying to prove to the court
that the sodomy was consensus. I think the international politicians should be given these
facts plus whatever Umno are trying to frame him. At the end the truth is the people do
not want a lusty old man to be their leader, there are so many good people around and start
looking for one. The present opposition leaders of lusty AI and rabid mad dog LKS will not
achieved what every Malaysian wants and needs. They will never take over from the corrupted
Umno/BN ever so start looking around It is better late than never !
ghkok
December 2, 2010
Could you clarify a bit what you’re writing ? It’s a bit confusing.
wandererAUS
November 28, 2010
I fear creating a Third Force will be what the old saying goes, “Too many cooks spoil the soup”!…perhaps, in this case, a lot of “MSG” (smart a##es, only good at offering lips services)was added. Is it the writer’s contention, a half baked is distastefully dangerous than a fully baked?
Mad Logic
November 28, 2010
When one doesn’t know what an aphorism is, one is bound to be confused.
Mad Logic
November 28, 2010
A little knowledge is often misleading and at times dangerous.
One can’t prove a negative proposition UNLESS one has access or have special knowledge of the UNIVERSAL SET.
Let me illustrate by way of an example. To prove that “there is NO black cat” I have to look at ALL (universal set) the cat in the world to prove the assertion. Even after 1 million cats and no black cat is found, I still have not proved my assertion but can only make a “reasonable conclusion”. The reason is that I have NO WAY of knowing what this universal set is.
In the case of forgery the universal set is actually quite limited eventhough the variation can be infinite. All the variations are circumscribed by the relationships between the strokes, the pressure points, the flow of the strokes and the lift points of the signature. Given one or two of sec.gen normal signature we would be able to establish these parameters and a forgery would be proven if it departs from these parameters.
In this instance neither the person who asserts forgery or deny it should prove it but US the rakyat should take the trouble to find out by independent evaluation that a forgery had taken place or not.
Jonson’s claim, for me is really sufficient ground to suspect forgery.
sensible guy
November 29, 2010
Mad Logic
no wonder your logic is mad !
Jonson could well be a liar or he is just lost/confused – what, how , why he feels about the letter doesn’t prove that the letter is forged.
Somebody ( expert/God/Devil ) must prove ( show the world ) that the signature did not come from that ex PKR fellow. In other words somebody ( human or Ghost )signed the document and made it look like it was signed by that ex PKR fler.
Its so simple. Nothing complicated that I have to write a thousand words
shar101
November 29, 2010
Sensible guy,
1) Why was Jenapala’s name mentioned for discussion in a political bureau meeting in August 2009 when he was supposed to have been sacked six months earlier?
http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/fmt-english/politics/pakatan-rakyat/13366-letter-sacking-jenapala-ex-pkr-sec-gen-cries-fraud
Will you now say that the minutes of this meeting is fake therefore the dismissal letter must be genuine?
2) Jonson outlined the proper procedure which Saifuddin should have adhered to authenticate the dismissal letter. Saifuddin, by saying he ‘found’ the letter in a file but did not commit due diligence prior to submitting it in court as evidence is simply farcical.
3) Jonson is still a member of PKR. Sallehuddin left. Both their assertions on this matter are the same i.e. the dismissal letter is not genuine.
4) Furthermore, I assert that you, Sensible guy, lied through your teeth .. errr .. keyboard when you claim to have written 1000 words in reply to Mad Logic. It was 91.
Therefore, please change your nick coz you’re not making any sense at all.
Mad Logic
November 29, 2010
Aiyoyo! so many words to say such a simple thing.
Johson today said that the signature was a digital signature. That is even much easier to prove.
So many bi-furcationz 😉 … and btw that’s a sign of madness ;-).
Daniel
November 28, 2010
you are too biased Haris.
Maybe you should educate us how to prove he signed it?
As “sensible guy” put it, he can always deny that he sign it, no matter if he did or did not sign it.
By the way, are you on a mission to destroy PKR? Didn’t you recently say that you had given up hope on PKR and you would not touch PKR anymore?
Richards
November 28, 2010
“you are too biased Haris”. Being biased but with openness and rational is not an issue. Most people tend to be biased. Keep it up Haris. So long you are not hipocrite, arrogance and ignorant like Anwar and his stooges.
flawless
November 29, 2010
Richards
I am afraid Haris will soon become a
Fool’s Hero
for the way he stirs up and provokes emotions from little naive children dying for action
Watcher in the Rye
November 29, 2010
Daniel
Being sensible means being objective and logical, not donning on some freaking blinkers in order to rationalise an obvious illegality and sweep everything under the family rug.
The person in question has denied ever signing such a letter. His contention is supported by the Deputy Secretary General. In other words, that is tantamount to corroborative evidence in support of the original assertion. In fact, the ex-dep.sec.general has outlined the general procedures in his blog.
If Jenapala had been officially sacked, why didnt he appeal? Janapala might not be a savoury character in your perception, but I am sure he is not stupid enough to cover that angle before he instituted his suit. In other words, there was no letter of expulsion, hence no appeal initiated against something non-existent, yet another point that indirectly corroborates the ex-Sec.General’s assertion and which may be considered circumstantial evidence related to the issue.
The onus is no on the current Sec. Gen to refute those claims. Every decision regarding disciplinary matters is determined by a party’s disciplinary body before being endorsed by the central committee unless PKR have a different mechanism that is wholly reliant on a “wahyu” from that Cult’s one and only resident gargoyle, you know who : ) before his fawning thought lobotimised zombies spring into action. For that matter, even Zaid’s decapitation was effectively consummated after a meeting that formalised a diktat issued by the Helmsman, a classic example of rule by whim and fancy.
Returning to the issue, all the current Sec.Gen has to do is to produce the relevant and show that such a decison was indeed made (not just in principle, mind you)that will effectivly debunk the allegations and render those insisting otherwise as donkeys braying in the narketplace.Great opportunity for a PR exercise that will burnish PKR’s tarnished image, right? So why the silence on that or is the Sec.Gen busy mascaraing and lipsticking those minutes to give it that extra gloss?.Wouldnt be surprised if that were the case.
The preceding is just to sensitise you as to how the whole afair will likely pan out in court.Any sensible lawyer with common sense will aver the same and any judge with tomes of precedence on his shelf will chorus in unison.
I have my own pet theory…Maybe the letter was indeed prepared but was never sent until it dropped out the file…hahahaha in which case Jenapala remains a legal member for surely a man cannot know of something not made beknownst to him, getting pretty metaphysical eh?… or maybe PKR will argue on the “proof of postage……receipt” clause, too legally convoluted isnt it? ask sensible guy to figure that out!!! hahahahaha……..
amd
November 28, 2010
hey I am getting a earful from PKR-r everytime I bump into them on “3rd force” although its no longer called that. KR is afraid very afraid but like I said to you I am susah hati with TCF.
amd,
Will be in touch when I get back next week
urangsabah
November 28, 2010
look tis site is where all bad about PKR is published..off course there other site like UMNOed Utusan….
Keep up the good work, maybe yourwish of UMNO ruling 4 another 50 years would be fulfilled…
Like RPK piece, he rather be with the devil he knows than the devil he does know.
Question how does one knows whose the devil. UMNO is a now devil, 53 yrs 2 b exact…..PR control 4 states, Pas hv shown to have handle kelantan well, Penang seem 2 b in good hand, Selangor is doing ok…Kedah a bit quiet.
Did u guys notice….corruption in tis 4 state are easily highlighted. Look at the know devil states…the rakyat in 3 state with oil, oil palm, timber r getting poorer…but 2 or 3 person r becoming billioniare.
A former CM can aso lose million playing in a casino….Wonder why Jakim when after the guy or MACC…vely kuai…
Maybe….tis is not the type of new that pays……
Habib RAK
November 29, 2010
Bro,
Pls see this clip on Saifudin Nasution’s rebuttal. Is it consistent with what he told you when you spoke to him?
Habib RAK,
Nope
Jong
November 29, 2010
LOL!!! so said the oxymoron, aping his boss..
“masalah Melaya masalah saya, masalah Cina masalah saya, masalah India masalah saya, masalah Iban masalah saya, masalah Kadazan masalah saya”. Tapi masalah pkr members masalah siapa? …he must have forgot his Zental medication, huh? 😀