No postings the last few days as I wanted to spend the time to take in all that has happened in the last one year and all that we see happening around us now. Trying to put things in perspective. Maybe a post on this, if time permits.
Those who sms’d, e-mailed and sent in comments to ask if I am ok, love you all back.
______________________________________
For a long time now, when people ask me whether I am Muslim, I answer that I do not know if I have done enough to be called as such.
And that’s the truth.
I don’t know.
I’m not trying to be difficult.
I don’t think it’s my place or that I am qualified to say, in absolute terms, that I am or am not.
It’s like finishing a 100 metre sprint on a nail biting photo-finish.
Did you win?
Don’t know.
Someone’s going to look at that photo-finish and tell you if you did enough to make it.
It’s just that I think being a Muslim or, for that matter, a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh or Taoist is more than just about saying ‘I’m Muslim’ or ‘I’m Christian’ or whatever it is you claim you are.
And it goes beyond the indicia of the particular faith you claim to belong to that you carry on your person.
Or the rituals of the faith that you ritually keep to and honour.
But that’s me.
And I’m always excited about the prospect of a lively discussion about faith, belief and the many beautiful religions that we experience in our daily interactions with our diverse people.
There’ve been a few of those on this blog, I think, and on the whole, I think they have been fruitful.
Well, fruitful for me, at least.
This last Sunday, though, I was saddened by the sheer ugliness that unbelief, on the one hand, and belief in God, on the other, generated in our own cyber backyard.
Someone with whom I am acquainted, Surind, had posted a video clip which, in no uncertain terms, reviled the Haj, the Holy Prophet and Islam and Muslims generally. I am not going to link to that post as I do not wish to lend further mileage to the unkindness that that video unleashed to those who believe in the Muslim faith and the Haj as a part of that faith.
A link in Surind’s post then took me to a reaction to the same on the blog of another person with whom I am acquainted, Mahaguru58. This, too, was ugly, and for that reason, I will not link to that post as well.
Mahaguru58’s post reminded me how, again and again, in the name of God and Islam, we see venomous hate hurled at those perceived as having offended The Most-Just and the Most Merciful and His way of life of peace.
And those who profess the religion of Islam wonder why so many non-Muslims have this notion that Islam advocates violence!
Both Surind and Mahaguru58 seem to have just lent some justification to Dr M’s view that we, as a nation, are not quite ready to handle the responsibility that goes hand in hand with the whole gamut of rights that we are guaranteed under the constitution, and that which we clamour for.
Sad.
The People's Parliament 
SPEAK UP MALAYSIA
December 9, 2008
Haris, stop feeling sorry for yourself already and get back to the good fight. Dr M is just an irrelevant hatemonger and tyrant, just like his good friend Mugabe. Malaysia has changed and the tide will not be reversed this time.
“Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is important that you do it.” Mahatma Gandhi
Tomorrow is World Human Rights Day. This is how the BN government celebrates, by beating up and harassing innocent Malaysians who are cycling for freedom:
FROM JERIT.ORG WEBSITE:
Tuesday, 09 December 2008
UPDATED : 2.00pm : 4 coordinators, Sungai Siput MP arrested.
The police have arrested 4 JERIT coordinators, Ranee, Sugumaran, Karthi, Jothi plus bus full of participants detained.
YB Dr Jeyakumar, Sungai Siput MP also arrested.
Helen (another JERIT coordinator) – was sexually assaulted, breasts grabbed and punched on the face. She is bleeding now.
The Kuala Kangsar police is violent and being unreasonable.
Please call the police station : 057762222 / 0175311697/ OCPD -012-7132719
Please also call Bukit Aman : 03-20319999
SPEAK UP MALAYSIA:
PROTECT OUR RIGHTS.
“The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.”
Sir Winston Churchill
“Peace can only last where human rights are respected,
and where individuals and nations are free.”
Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama
sampalee
December 9, 2008
Our only mistake is to reduce God into a concept so it can lend itself to discussion[working of the intellect]Allah is inconceivable,One can surrender and BE with Allah,but to know Allah as an object of knowledge is futile as Allah is the immutable NON-Conceptual knowing Subject.The Truth of Tawhid can point us to the source.The scriptures of Every religions is full of such pointers,yet few look beyond to realise what is being pointed–Our True self ‘I’ as in Anal Hak[one of the 99 names of Allah]
Balan
December 9, 2008
We need not go far. Just look at the comments in our blogs and see how civilised we are in discussing even the most sensible things.
We keep on saying that Malaysians are matured enough, when we are actually not. There’s still long way to go.
Regards
http://balankumarpremakumaran.blogspot.com/
Azmi Sharom
December 9, 2008
Hey Haris. Cheer up lah dude. In any country there will be idiots who spout hate. The difference is that in this country our “leaders” pander to the hate mongers. They either react with more hate or they actually support the hate. If we had men and women in positions of authority who could put down all hate speech in all its forms, then they set the tone for society. And I believe most in society are too busy with the everyday hassles of life to want to be drawn into the malicious and the vile.
Sorry if this is vague, I blame the flu!
Barbara J
December 9, 2008
It takes all kinds, I suppose 😦 You see when it comes to religion no one will concede that their faith is beneath another. A holier than thou attitude if you will. I cannot see a win-win situation in these discussions when we come to the table with closed minds and hearts.
Malaysian Wannabe Again
December 9, 2008
Brother Haris
While you do not qualify to be an Imam or a Prophet, you are much more a Muslim than any of those Munafiq Muslims wannabes in UMNO.
Looking forward to catching up with you soon. Blessings of the Almight be upon you.
hamzah
December 9, 2008
religion is personal, so everyone please stay out 🙂
hamzah,
Sorry, but stay out of what?
Hartal MSM
December 9, 2008
Haris,
I’m bewildered as to why Balan (comment #3) fails to cite as an example Demi Negara, a blog which Balan has perplexingly high praises for [“Can’t agree with you more (Demi Negara)”] as to me, the blog is a platform for hate speech.
Balan further complimented [“Anyway another good one”] Demi Negara’s latest posting which defends Mukhriz Mahahtir.
http://deminegara.blogspot.com/2008/12/at-last-someone-with-testicular.html
Excerpted from Demi Negara:
“If we think we are a people worthy of our own Negara Merdeka under the Panji-Panji Raja-Raja Melayu Berdaulat, we must then take swift and decisive action to annihilate this societal outrage [“vernacular schools, the throbbing cancerous tumour that has been the single biggest obstacle to Malaysia’s social cohesion”] that has become a clear threat to our socio-political stability, to the development of a cohesive Bangsa Malaysia and, indeed, to our national security and integrity of Bumi Malaysia.
The Malaysian nation cannot support a system that produces functional illiterates molded in the linguistic and cultural forms of alien nations far from the shores of our Tanah Air. Many of these SRJK lost souls drop out upon entering the national high school system due to their sheer inability to adapt to the mainstream Bahasa Malaysia-centric curriculum. Many will become lifelong socio-economic burdens as these social outcasts ultimately percolate into the underground economy to eke out a wretched existence on the fringes of criminality. They also add to the social roadblock towards effective nation-building and in the formation of a cohesive, productive Anak Bangsa Malaysia.
The SRJK(C) and (T) produce kids who are more insular, more parochial and less receptive to socio-cultural diversity. From my own direct interaction with these products of vernacular schooling, I find them not only below par in Bahasa Malaysia BUT also grossly deficient in English as well. Hence, they are handicapped in the national language and the international language of commerce – a double whammy the vast majority will never be able to overcome.
These functional illiterates end up as a cheap source of semi-indentured labour in the motor workshops, auto accessory shops, in the building trades, sleazy unisex salons, become cetak rompak aficionados, stalk shopping malls to harass shoppers with a myriad of worthless gizmos and, in the case of many if not most Tamil-educated Indians, become low wage general workers, lorry drivers and assorted hired hands for the towkays.
The anti-Malay chauvinist politicians will then turn around and blame the NEP and Ketuanan Melayu for this socio-economic malady of their own concoction, further unraveling the last vestiges of social cohesion we may have in our Tanah Air Tercinta.”
Going by Demi Negara’s description of Chinese as sleazy shampoo girls, Ah Beng indentured-labour auto mechanics, pirated DVD peddlers, kutu-mall youth salesmen and criminally inclined to boot, one would think that young Chinese deserve NEP assistance, i.e. policy to eradicate poverty regardless of race, and inspired to more professional vocations though state education-assist.
But noooo, Demi Negara’s views are far, far from that Chinese dregs of society deserve positive government attention.
Demi Negara’s description of Chinese adults: “a community infested by crooks and thieves and counterfeiters and pimps”, and “To the ethnic-Chinese of Malaysia, they are beyond reproach. They are the embodiment of the perfect being. This state of kesempurnaan is tampered only by the thick undergrowth of Malay mediocrity that curtails the Chinese quest for wealth and fortune”, and etc, etc – Demi Negara is a Malay blog obsessed with the minorities share of the economic cake, it would seem.
Oh did I say I’m boggled at Balan’s comment here in your blog, considering his enthusiasm for Demi Negara and other hangouts where he leaves his blog address, and the sort of comments there.
Please, dear People’s Parl readers, go ahead and click at random on any Demi Negara posting; the comments are even more passionate about Chinese and Indians. http://deminegara.blogspot.com
Drachen
December 9, 2008
Haris,
Everytime I look out of an aeroplane I see how big God is and how insignificant we are. Yet the sun is a million times bigger than the earth. The sun is just one star among billions in our galaxy. Our galaxy is just one among billions of galaxies in the KNOWN UNIVERSE. That’s how big God is. We are microscopic in comparison. How presumptious we humans are to put God in a box.
You are humble enough so say you don’t know if you qualify to be a Muslim. Likewise I cannot claim to understand the mind of God. I can only act according to the conscience He gave me.
Estrelita Soliano Grosse
December 9, 2008
Hello Bro, Well-expressed as always. I have to agree with you. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
While I support freedom of speech, there are some boundaries which we must respect. While I support the outrage felt, there are also other ways to deal with it.
Long ago, I learned that when you can’t talk to people about God, then you should start talking to God about these people.
Why can’t we do just that, in the quiet of our hearts and in our homes and in our minds?
Praying that this will blow over as quickly as it started! 🙂
Take care out there! Hugs for you! 🙂
Michelle
December 9, 2008
I sort of know what you mean. I posted something about the Mumbai attacks, and got a string of comments, some of which have been unpleasant and unkind about the Quran and what it says.
I think perhaps terrorism is starting to take roots, in that the latest Mumbai terrorist attack is really starting to create the terror in people’s hearts, which is exactly what it sets out to do.
Also, I’ve been reading a book on the Prophet (pbuh), which gave me a lot of food for thought on how Islam was first perceived and received by the largely Christian and Jewish population back in the old days. I read about how the Muslim authorities had no problems living together with people of other faiths, and asked only that the Prophet (pbuh) be respected, or at least that no insult was hurled towards him.
I’ve been told by some people on several different occasions that I’m reading too many books for my own good, and turning into an apologist, though an apologist for what, I’m not so sure. But the more I read about things that are alien to me, the more I get to understand that there are so many things to learn, if we can manage to keep an open heart and mind. Surely, by understanding more than what I do now, it can’t be a bad thing?
Michelle,
You an apologist? Nah!!!
You’re on the right track, if you ask me.
Patriotic1994
December 9, 2008
Felt the same as well. I am a Christian. No, I am not. Err… yes, I am… err, I am not. 🙂 Hard to answer it.
Why?
When I was young, I was proud to tell my friends I was a free-thinker. I did not believe in any religion. I had my own faith. But all these gave me troubles. First, when I filled up forms, there was no “free-thinker” option. Second, friends of mine who were Christian would ask me to go Church with them. Even strangers, asked me to go since I had “no religion” yet.
So I made a choice. I just lied. “I’m Christian”. End of story.
But deep in my heart, am I?
Until when I read the bible myself, I realize to be a Christian, one has to believe the story of Jesus Christ, that he had come to save the world. Or to be precise, this person called “Jesus Christ” does exist and he is son of God.
I tried to relate that to this: “Do you believe Albert Einstein does exist?” Many would say yes. But based on what? Based on what written in the book? But we never seen him in person anyway. This is all based on what was written, called history. So then, what about Bible?
Next question is, story in Bible is dated nearly 2,000 years ago. Story in Albert Einstein dated just around 100 years ago. So, time does make a different. Now, how about 2,000 years later, in year 4,000, will people still believe that Albert Einstein does exist?
The bottomline is, world is changing rapidly, especially in the last few years. Question is, will anyone still believe in God by year 4,000? Or to be precise, anything that is more than 2,000 years ago, like Albert Einstein? All those things may be just become a story and displayed in museum, if there is anything left over…
Tiger Cheah
December 9, 2008
Dear Haris,
Perk up bro, the Cause is still worth fighting for. Also Stoke City is doing fine and if not for Owen, they would have beaten Newcastle!
Your acquaintance Surind had full rights to post what he posted in his own blog and he will have to face whatever consequences. I like what Antares commented in that blog post; it is not what was posted that matters, it was why it was posted. I have my doubts about this Surind who wears his atheist tag like a badge of honor. Trying to provoke Believers makes him no different from the religious zealots he tends to condemn.
Cheers!
Cheah
Bro,
Too bad about Stoke, mate.
And for the West Ham fans out there, no hard feelings that Spurs gazoomed them 2-0.
Argus Eye
December 9, 2008
Surind and Mahaguru are both ignorant, and arrogant. To sum them up, read up a classic parable by Swami Vivekanda in Chicago in 1893 which earned him a standing ovation from ALL religious scholars:
“A frog lived in a well. It had lived there for a long time. It was born there and brought up there, and yet was a little, small frog. Of course, the evolutionists were not there then to tell us whether the frog lost its eyes or not, but, for our story’s sake, we must take it for granted that it had its eyes, and that it every day cleansed the water of all the worms and bacilli that lived in it with an energy that would do credit to our modern bacteriologists. In this way it went on and became a little sleek and fat. Well, one day another flog that lived in the sea came and fell into the well.
“Where are you from?”
“I am from the sea.”
“The sea?! How big is that? Is it as big as my well?” and he took a leap from one side of the well to the other.
“My friend,” said the frog of the sea, “how do you compare the sea with your little well?”
Then the frog took another leap and asked, “Is your sea so big?”
“What nonsense you speak, to compare the sea with your well!”
“Well, then,” said the frog of the well, “nothing can be bigger than my well; there can be nothing bigger than this; this fellow is a liar, so turn him out.”
That has been the difficulty all the while. I am a Hindu. I am sitting in my own little well and thinking that the whole world is my little well. The Christian sits in his little well and thinks the whole world is his well. The Mohammedan sits in his little well and thinks that is the whole world. l have to thank you of America for the great attempt you are making to break down the barriers of this little world of ours, and hope that, in the future, the Lord will help you to accomplish your purpose.” [Swami Vivekananda, 1893]
This is exactly what we are facing today. But why? Yes, sheer ignorance and arrogance.
For those who care to read, please read up my first ever blog post. I believe it could bring us all closer. At least, I hope so.
Blame The People, Not The Religion:
http://pantheon-of-argus.blogspot.com/2008/11/recap-blame-people-not-religion_6922.html
Anak Bangsa Malaysia,
Argus Eye.
Patricia
December 9, 2008
Dear Haris,
This pagan tree worshipper doesn’t know about god or his ways. But I do believe if there is a god out there, he sees you and understands who you are. All we can do is but try, no?
Every day, I read about how we’ve sunk lower and lower into the quagmire: We revile each others’ religions; belittle others because of their ethnicity; and do dispicable things in the name of god and religion. It just makes me wonder if people would not all be better off simply tree-worshipping like me? Nah.
Hang in there, bro.
Pat
Pat, always good to see you here.
You take care, too.
Shreya
December 9, 2008
Argus,
its true what you said…thats the difficulty..and the post ‘blame the ppl, not the religion’ that you linked up was beautiful..its a read that could link us all together..especially the similarites between al fatihah and gayathri mantra..shocking..
and haris..good to have u back. God bless.
Shreya,
Good to be back. God bless
backStreetGluttons
December 9, 2008
If you read the Holy Books , (so called as such) you will have realised that human beings were doomed the day they were born. Its His Plan, so what else is new ?
Just be honest and sincere and respect your neighbours and fellow human beings. That’s as good as you can get. if you do more , it simp[ly means you are able to give more than you receive and that is probably what God ( if he’s there ) has intended someone l;ike you to do !
well done !
sinnerconman
December 9, 2008
Hi Haris. Cheers, yours truly was mutilated into so many permutations just yesterday has a renewed spirit today. I can see you are a Muslim, a simple Muslim and a real Muslim, I see Islam in you, so thoughtful and full of wisdom not appreciated by the so called religious and holier than thou … True religion is full of love and compassion, justice tampered with mercy, not even wishing evils or harm to the wicked. God does not need humans to fight for him and from the book and history, humans suffered the most every time they “used the name of God”, they may be very sincere and they can also be sincerely wrong. We must remember that God does not micro-manage our day to day life. God is the judge and he judges with love and justice over mercy. The truth is that: legalism is not strict enough; cohesion or force will never make human free, but freedom and freewill. I can understand you bitterness and I rebuke you for your bitterness which will only gnash into your soul. Cheers and life goes on.
Gadfly
December 9, 2008
Martin Luther King must have certain political reasons – like anti-Vietnamese War contributions – to nominate Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Buddhist monk, for the Nobel Peace Prize.
When I read his book again, Interbeing, I find something quite striking. It says :” Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.”
The word ‘idolatrous’ is a key word which has the root of ‘idol’. People can make idols out of things that they can see and touch like statutes, buildings and books etc.But, they can also idolise things that they can’t see like doctrines and ideologies. Religious texts,religious ideas, religious figures, religious statutes or sites, religious activities etc all can be transformed into idols.
Another unique word is ‘any’. If we idolise the concept of non-idolising, we are also idolising. The mind can be quite tricky. Perhaps, it is useful to understand how the mind can trick itself without it knowing.
Paul Warren
December 9, 2008
Hi Bro,
Whats it that you’ve got that a single won’t fix? And I got a single!! Not a Belvanie though!! But with kids in town, not so free and easy….
As for these atheists. Ah….can scream when you encounter one la…
You want to talk football, and they want you to defend your faith, if you have one.
You want to talk politics and they think the most important subject matter is monotheistic religions are a crap and that it is my duty to defend it becuase I would not satisfy their need for me to repudiate or acknowledge whatever it is I believe.
What is worse is when they come sit beside you and tell you that they are an aetheist and an agnostic at the same time! Nothing to talk already from then.
Hey, you aetheists out there…congratulations that you got a belief system. But really, I don’t give a damn and I think most of us don’t too. But you want to introduce yourself to me next time, Just give me your name..and we can go from there…I don’t need to know the rest of the details.
As for Islammaphobes and religion bashing, hey, I did not realise it was the season yet!
Paul,
Will call you
Fair
December 9, 2008
Dear Haris,
I am not a Muslim , but I alway refrain from drinking and eating in front of my Muslim colleagues in office and anywhere in front of fellow Muslims during fasting month out of respect for Islam and my Muslim brothers and sisters.
Islam is a great religion and no-one should post anything which may hurt the feelings of fellow Muslims.
Cheers.
vishie
December 9, 2008
dear haris,
when some people use or misuse the name of god to propagate their agenda via the medium of violence or benevolence, others who do not subscribe to those views will feel offended. that is natural. when we say not to have a discussion on race; the very reason is the tendency of one race to up the other. it is like having a discourse on man utd and liverpool. for who plays the more beautiful game is irrelevant. that is why they are called die-hards. hence in terms of religion, people tend to potray that same kind of fervour. which i must concede is understandable. next is how do we overcome it??? well for a start all organised religions are off tangent. that is a fact which after exhaustive research and reflection; all objective spiritual beings will come to conclude. let me put it in this way. when the salvation of human beings are much debated in the realms of the organised religions, what chance have the kingdoms’ of animal, plant and mineral have in that equation. if the organised religion have so much difficulty to articulate to the humankind, then what chance of survival of the other kingdoms??? only after deep thought will we realise the folly of our collective noble endeavours. when we truly believe in god, we dont need anything else except the true hold of belief in god. that is the true religion; not only for us but for all creation. it is when we truly expand our consciousness, will we be able to comprehend the truth. do not accept it at face value but search and seek it. for god, my friend, welcomes those who are thirsty not the full. not the label but its substance. god bless….
anthony loke (the reb)
December 9, 2008
you are right that some of the postings on cyberspace are not worth mentioning or quoting or referring to, especially those that use religion for hate.
as the pastor who came a few sunday nights ago to share at the pj candlelight vigil, all i can say is that someone once said to the effect that ‘religion is a dangerous thing’. yes, it can incite unfortunately some to the extreme, like to hate others. i don’t believe all religions teach us to hate or condemn. we may not agree with some salient points in each other’s faith but we respect and tolerate each other’s viewpoints. (of course, sometimes, these hatred is ‘reinforced’ by what we perceive happening around us but these are often not the good role models. anyone can choose to see the ‘good’ and the so-called ‘bad’ in each religion and then highlight only the ‘bad’).
as for handling responsibility, like spiderman, we find that with power comes great responsibility and vice versa. with responsibility also comes power (that is often twisted and used for wrong purposes). if only human beings can learn to live with responsibility and power and not misuse them!
leekh
December 10, 2008
Here we go again. Islam and Christianity comes from the same tree. These brother religions teaches that they have the key to the truth (how arrogant can you get) and their god is the only one true god. So they had been fighting each other way before the crusades until now. Thus every where they go they bring along with them this baggage and spread it to everyone. Now we Malays, Indians, Pakistani, Chinese, Indonesians who never made an appearance in their holy books are cursing and fighting each other. Think if these fairy tales of the chosen people and their hateful god had been confined to themselves the world would be a different place. We are all atoms of gases floating in space. Lets try not to remember god for a day. The world will be a better place.
farida
December 10, 2008
Helen, Demi Negara forgets that the number of Malay students in Chinese Vernacular Schools is on the increase. I hope he takes the trouble to find out why there is this exodus from national schools.
shar101
December 10, 2008
Gosh, bro. PW has another bottle of fine singles, yet again!
Am on dial-up coz Telekom’s streamyx still can’t find my new location. Being branded as S.B. still has its limitations, I guess.
Ahhhh… Surind and Mahaguru58… The less said, the better… at least, for my sanity’s sake. And they ain’t the only obnoxious ones in town. There’s more popping up lately.
Oh well. Back to drudgery of redecorating the new abode.
See yer soon, bro.
P.S. Btw I made Rocky ‘sweat a little’ with my sinister Q at the CPI forum last Friday and according to Helen Ang, Nuraina cringed! Hehehe… more later when we meet up.
KC Cheah
December 10, 2008
To Hartal MSM (December 9, 2008 at 6:03 pm),
Wow you actually took d trouble to cull the 20-odd postings at DemiNegara to create a composite picture of that blog’s leanings?
Why you so scared of DemiNegara?
I don’t feel threatened by that blog. I may not agree with many of his Rightist views, but that guy makes me think and he takes all comers with his witty rapid fire to-your-face style.
Balan has the right to agree/disagree with any blog.
Why is that a problem?
KC
Helen Ang
December 10, 2008
To KC Cheah
(Dec 10 at 2.15am),
To answer your query as to monitoring Demi Negara’s postings, yes, he has been on our radar for quite a while now. Initially, we were in two minds as to whether or not to publish his blog url, or bring any attention to his postings.
Our earlier reservation was in the same vein as Haris’ above on choosing not to link Surind’s and Mahaguru’s postings — it is, in certain circumstances, counter-productive to publicize.
Thus far, apart from the readership channeled by the pro-Umno blogs as can be observed from traffic-feed breakdown carried in Demi Negara (and unlike the self-publicist Balan who scatters his url-callcard like confetti in Malaysian blogosphere when he exercises “his right” as you put it, to agree or disagree), Demi Negara has been generally low profile though hugely popular with a hardcore following.
As to Demi Negara’s leanings, the keris that is his banner right across the homepage should be some indication.
You say that you “don’t feel threatened by that blog”, “[you[ may not agree with many of his Rightist views, but that guy makes [you] think”.
Can’t we say the same thing about Surind’s atheist and Mahaguru’s Islamist blogs? That while we don’t agree with many views, they nonetheless have unfettered right to freedom of speech? After all, neither’s views threaten or scare us personally. But look at the furore caused.
Demi Negara spreads hate, and his racism is a lot like Che Det’s.
If you read the responses to Surind’s posting on the haj, you will see that there have been anti-Indian slurs and attacks on Hinduism, and these unreasoned reactions come from the same pool of hate that Demi Negara dips from. After Surind hurt the feelings of Muslims, a whole bunch of people go and condemn Hindu practices (which have nothing to do with Surind who is not Hindu) and aggravating communal ill-will.
If you read the Demi Negara blog, you will find the same mob mentality, the same untempered language, the same bashing of minority races, minority religions. To you, that may be alright; you may even enjoy Demi Negara’s in-your-faceness. To us, it definitely isn’t.
I (speaking for myself) hope that the flap over Surind will blow over. He has apologized and really, we don’t want to see more unpleasantness as in the divisive Teresa Kok episode. Actions like Mahaguru lodging the police report and inciting the Muslim Bloggers Alliance only escalate the incendiary situation.
Not many have tried to mediate and tamp down the flames. To those few that have, including Muslims and ‘starchild’ Antares, they’ve warmed my heart.
However, many have instead vented and some miss the forest for the trees like the ones making Surind’s ethnicity a four-letter word, and insulting his mother.
From what I can gather, Demi Negara censors opposing comments somewhat. The danger comes when there is a lack of balance, and even when there are one or two voices of reason, they’re swept away by the strong current of hate.
In the racist aspect of Demi Negara postings, we put him in the same frame as Mahaguru’s venom. ‘Irresponsible’ is an understatement as they’re very articulate and know jolly well their agenda.
http://deminegara.blogspot.com
Helen Ang
for the Hartal MSM group
Balan
December 10, 2008
Dear Hartal
To set the record straight. I do agree with Demi Negara’s article supporting one school for all Malaysian. I reproduce my comments here,
——————————————————–
Apahal lama sangat tiada posting. Anyway another good one.
Have commented on this on my blog way back in Nov.
http://balankumarpremakumaran.blogspot.com/2008/11/close-down-all-tamil-schools.html
and here
http://balankumarpremakumaran.blogspot.com/2008/12/mukhriz-implement-single-structure-in.html
Some people simply failed to see the idea in the proper context, positively.
And our leaders can’t even enggage in a constructive debate before reaching a conclusion. Everyone from both ends (PKR, DAP, MIC& MCA) became emotional and started threatening with police reports, seditions act etc..
And yet our leaders (BN and Pakatan) keep saying that the rakyat (they included) are matured enough, all the time, during and after elections.
How can that be when we are not even prepared to discuss future of our children in a pragmatic, constructive and sensible way.
Najib simply shrugged it off, what does that tell us about our future PM.
Where is Harapan Baru? Tak boleh diharap langsung. Why the silence? What else if not for the fear of losing their non-malay votes more than working towards building a united Malaysia
——————————————————–
Perhaps I failed to highlight race bashing, name calling etc. I tried this before in other forums, I get the same (name calling, racial slurs etc) in return, so why bother. As long as I can get my message across, I am fine, I am tired of correcting people, Let them have their say.I am more interested in substance rather than the form.
Regards
JJ
December 10, 2008
Dear Haris,
Much have been written before about whether free speech is absolute. When the Danish cartoons came out and CNN refused to show them, there was a discussion as to whether CNN is practising self censorship.
I believe that free speech has to be exercised responsibly. And Tiger Cheah is right. An atheist condemning a religious person is no different from another religious zealot.
Surind’s post was discussed in the ABM google group and many did advise him to take down his post. However, he still maintained the link.
Unfortunately, not all God fearing people respond the same way. Some will be humble because of their God. Some will be arrogant, because of the same God. However, to label everyone who follows the same religion in the same way is wrong. And media plays a big part in the way we think or react. I still remember just before the GE, an email was circulating around stating that another temple was being demolished and calling people to demonstrate when that temple was actually illegally built on someone else’s land and there was already an agreement to relocate the temple with the land owner.
Therefore, it’s important not to react to situations. We should instead respond to those situations (borrowing from Steven Covey).
Cheers.
rajan
December 10, 2008
Hi Harris,
Ahhhhhhhh ! Those two are just plain crazy.
Surind , i dont know what he is trying to prove !
Mahaasshole, I dont know whats his game!
If its their opinion ,well fine but dont put it up in such a way that hurts others.Oh ! surind in his “reply” was asking what happened the the “?” mark .
MBA well its one way to enrich oneself and get noticed,i believe both parties concerned are looking and wanting to be noticed ala their crude ways.
Dont give a damn shit to both of them.
I dont follow surinds blog till i read your posting n looked for it but i sometimes peep into “58” to see a “9” but he is trying to make a mountain of a molehill.
F**& them harris Just stay focused and get rid of the ISA.
I also could sense the frustration in your post but what can we do if morons turn ugly.
Cheer up harris ! Dont let them get to you !
Hartal MSM
December 10, 2008
Thank you Balan for clarifying.
farida
December 10, 2008
KC Cheah and Helen,
The first time I visited Demi Negara’s blog, the keris that is his banner brought immediately to my mind events of the past pertaining to bathing the keris in blood. To say I felt uncomfortable is an understatement, given Najib’s threats sometime back and Hishamuddin’s notorious stance with the keris at the UMNO General Assembly.
I wondered then whether DN was the type who spews hate in his writings. After a couple of visits to his blog I decided not to, simply because I am against rabid speech and those whose aim in writing is not to end confusion or mediate or to state a legitimate and rational differing viewpoint but to spread hate, stir up racist feelings, whip up the irrational into a state of frenzy and cause division in society.
It is a pity that DN uses his craft in writing this way.
In the end, we are judged not for what we say and do but what the intents of our hearts are. I was unable to find a noble motive in DN’s blog. And I have no intention of reading what Surind wrote. If someone has a warped mind, that still does not alter the truth.
notsleepinganymore
December 10, 2008
Dear Haris
Freedom of speech? Well, why shouldn’t anyone have the freedom to speak? What of the golden rule – do unto others as you would have opthers do unto you?
If we want to stand up, speak out and be counted – why deny others to do the same?
However, my only caveat is: those who speak should be ready to defend what they say intelligently. And those who oppose should do so intelligently as well. Those who cannot fulfill these criteria should be laughed off the soapbox.
For the poison-spewing opinionists, nothing steals their thunder more than being intelligently exposed for the fools they are. They may rant and rave, but in the end, their foolishness is just being more and more exposed. To correct them (and those like them) is a complete waste of time.
However, since these fools do have their following, I believe it is of great importance and urgency that a complete change comes to Malaysia.
The ruling government has brainwashed a large swath of Malaysians with their myopic racist propaganda and polarised the races as never before. After March 8, they have proven again and again that nation-building is the last thing on their mind. Their continued stoking of racist hatred is lighting the fuse on the many powder kegs they have installed in the nation over the years. Thank God that many Malaysian no longer subscribe to the BN’s propaganda.
Be that as it may, it would be naive to assume that race politics no longer holds sway in Malaysia. As a minority-race Malaysian, I am keenly aware of the political slights against me, simply because I am not of the Bangsa Tuan. And it cannot be denied that many non-Malays are also reacting foolishly by trying to out-racist their perceived offenders.
How can we counter this trend of attach and counter-attack? What we need now are leaders in all levels of society who consciously make a decision to go against the grain and make “unity in diversity” work – as an example to the rest of the nation.
That’s why YB Khalid Samad has my unending admiration for his willingness to engage Christians in their own church. My respects also for the DAP & Tunku Abdul Aziz for making efforts in this direction.
That’s why we also need more popular heroes in the same vein as Sudirman, Sheila Majid, Shebby Singh, P. Ramlee, etc. These people’s popularity transcend race and unites people in a common passion.
Most of all, we need many, many Malays to lead the way in this endeavour, as only then will the rest of the nation be convinced of its rightness. With the generations of ever-bigger lies that has been spread to the citizens of this fair land (UMNO’s “the non-Malays are stealing the Malays’ wealth” nonsense vs the equally damaging “we need to fight off the Malays to preserve ourselves” mentality of the rest of the BN parties), we need the Malays to take the lead and show the rest of the nation that Malays have nothing to fear from non-Malays and vice-versa.
The only way to achieve this is to have a complete change of government and in its institutions. We have devolved in our nationhood to the point where it will take one or two generations before we manage to build up a national cohesiveness that will make our great country competitive again.
But, another one or two more generations of BN will corrupt us forever. As it is now, we are creeping ever closer to the level of the world’s despot nations in various international rankings!
WE NEED CHANGE NOW!!
notsleepinganymore,
Couldn’t agree with you more.
KC Cheah
December 11, 2008
No. Demi Negara does not cull away dissenting comments the RPK/Malaysia Today style. The most uncouth Chinese bigots get published, at their own risk of course as the opposing forces would vigorously rebut the bigot’s points. Same thing with Malay and Indian and Kadazan bigots. Go view the comments section of the Blog’s posts and marvel at the tenacious, intellectually inspired sparring of both sides — unmatched in any other blog anywhere. That explains his popularity.
He/she welcomes dissent. But his meticulous replies, often more elaborate than the original postings themselves, would intellectually demolish the dissenting voices with well-thought out arguments and counterpoints.
I enjoy sparring with him, and even his most venomous outbursts are laced with wit and humour that makes one concurrently want to laugh and cry.
Unlike many of us here and elsewhere, he is multilingual, equally adept in English and BM and the East Coast dialect plus choice Ah Pek phrases that spiced the proceedings.
His crowd in cosmopolitan. It’s not a Malay-centric, BTN garbage, asz-kissing portal. He whacks the UMNO hacks as hard as the DAP bigots.
Again, why call him racist and such just because he often hits the nail smack on our heads on such fundamental issues as national unity, national language and chauvinist-induced venacular schooling?
Sorry, I find the analysis and conclusions of the Demi Negara haters here as shallow and superficial, perhaps due to your own intolerance for opposing viewpoints and inability to manage a full-frontal assault powered by sheer grey matter.
Balan, look at the condascending remark by “Helen Ang” aimed at you (“…the self-publicist Balan who scatters his url-callcard like confetti in Malaysian blogosphere …”) And you are a voice of reason in the blogosphere. And for these same people to slander Demi Negara as racists, etc. while they denigrade you in the same breath reeks of the double standard and hypocrisy that afflicts us non-Malays.
Ignore your naysayers brother and keep on bloggin’
KC
Helen Ang
December 11, 2008
KC Cheah,
(1) You write “Demi Negara does not cull away dissenting comments the RPK/Malaysia Today style”.
(a) Unless you’re a Malaysia Today moderator yourself, you don’t know what MT has censored. Similarly I don’t know what Demi Negara has censored either. We can both only make our deductions from the giveway comments which do get published complaining that they’d been censored earlier.
(b) By that token – and since you’d also earlier noted “Wow you [Hartal MSM monitors] actually took d trouble to cull the 20-odd postings at DemiNegara to create a composite picture of that blog’s leanings?” – please spare us the trouble of a second round to collate the comments complaining that commentators had been censored or the blogger’s own admission that he had moderated the dissenting voices. They’re there.
(2) KC Cheah, you also write “The most uncouth Chinese bigots get published … same thing with Malay and Indian and Kadazan bigots”.
What do your own words tell you?
Like wow, what a merry crowd of ‘most uncouth bigots’ of all stripes congregating there. And this is the environment that inspires an atmosphere of goodwill and intelligent discourse debating race politics?
(3) And again your own description of Demi Negara: “plus choice Ah Pek phrases” [i.e. mimicking the stereotypical Chinese], “even his most venomous outbursts” (are laced with wit and humour);
Che Det-like ‘venomous’? and granted, Dr M is ‘witty’; Yes, venom does attract a lot of popularity and like-minded, which does not mitigate the poison.
I doubt that those dipping their toes in Demi Negara – he with the “many Rightist views” (your own words, again) – are balanced, not if he censors.
(4) And look at the way you yourself presume: “Unlike many of us here and elsewhere, he is multilingual, equally adept in English and BM” … have you spoken with any single one of us here to head-count that the majority of People’s Parl’s participants are not adept in BM?
Or take some members of the Hartal group like Nanda and myself – you’ve obviously never come across our comments here posted in BM, or realise that Malay is Shar’s (Sharifuddin) mother tongue.
(5) Sorry, KC, the test of the pudding is in the eating. The best test is for anyone reading our exchange to go to Demi Negara’s comment section and check out for themselves whether it’s true as you claim:
(a) “his crowd is cosmopolitan”,
(b) “It’s not Malay-centric”
(c) whether they don’t sound like BTN (Biro Tatanegara) idealogues,
(d) and they don’t “asz-kiss” Demi Negara as with the Che Det template.
http://deminegara.blogspot.com
Balan
December 11, 2008
KC/Helen,
I am just a commoner, unlike many imminent and famous personalities & groups in the blogspere. I have a full time job,a family to support and has been a voter ever since becoming eligible.
Helen’s remarks MAY be in a bad taste but it was true. For a self starter like me, I had to self publicise to get my views (in my blog) heard. I can’t afford to advertise, can I. But, no hard feelings there.
Again, unlike many, I had a tough upbringing from the estates in Johor to KL now.
I had first hand experience of marginalisation, discrimination and poverty and thought that my sensible views are ought to be heard. Many bloggers and groups are KL centric and I find that their views may not necessarily reflect the sentiments in the ground.
I would prefer to be in the middle ground although I may sound like a pro establishment at times, depending on the issues, eg HINDRAF.
Eyes Wide Open
December 11, 2008
Some verbatim excerpts from of Demi Negara to put things into perspective:
———————
Well, since the non-Malays nowadays take pride in their frankness and think there are no sacred cows in our complex socio-political framework, I will be frank as well. When the Duli-Duli Yang Maha Mulia Raja-Raja Melayu agreed to the wholesale dishing out of Malayan citizenships — even inexplicably waiving Bahasa Melayu proficiency tests — to a million and a half unwanted, abandoned stateless Chinese (and Indians) in 1957, could the Duli-Duli Tuanku have envisioned that the descendants of these desperate huddled masses would after 51 years become an unintegrated community of lawbreakers; a community infested by crooks and thieves and counterfeiters and pimps; a community that not only tidak terhutang budi to the Duli-Duli Tuanku for the precious kewarganegaraan, but now had the audacity to challenge every single tenet of Duli Tuanku’s instruments of nationhood, not least the Bahasa Malaysia and Adat-Adat Melayu and the keris and the songkok and the sacred principle of Negara Dalam Arca Melayu held dear by Duli-Duli Tuanku.
Should we treat these pathological lawbreakers leniently? Give more muka and perhaps a piece of our peha on top of all the tanah, bukit, balak, pasir, sungai, and timah that they have siphoned away for the past abad or so? Do we need to kumpul and cuci anymore sampah, sisa, hampas and habuk in the bumi gersang and padang jarak padang tekukur left in their wake?
They deserve to be viewed as equal partners in nationbuilding?
———————
Heck, I’ll say it now as they deserved to be remembered for posterity. This team of seven Malays (Jamal Nasir, Yahaya Jusoh, Abdah Alif, Shukor Salleh, Bakri Ibni, Isa Bakar and Mokhtar Dahari), two ethnic-Chinese (Soh Chin Aun and James Wong), an ethnic-Tamil (R. Arumugam) a Punjabi Sikh (Santokh Singh) and a Sarawak Dayak substitute (James Yaakub) were the embodiment of the Malaysian Race, the Bangsa Malaysia. These were the idols of Malaysian sports fans across the land. The Malaysian football team was our team, the Bangsa Malaysia team. At the neighbourhood padang, my gang took turns to mimic Arumugam in goal and Chin Aun as the libero and, of course, SuperMokh, Mokhtar Dahari. My buddy, Ow Chak Yoon would mimic the RTM running commentary as the rest of us scurry after the tattered football; his impersonation of Zulkarnaen Hassan in ecstasy over a Malaysian goal was uncanny, surreal, and reverberates in my ears whenever I look at old faded photographs of my classmates. Oh yes, every ethnic-Chinese in my Standard Six class wanted to be Mokhtar Dahari on the field. I always imagined I was the great Chin Aun, elegantly caressing the ball with imperious presence in the Malaysian backline. Race was never an issue. These football legends belonged to all of us Bangsa Malaysia, speaking in one voice, striving for the same goal.
———————
No. The chauvinist, self-centered and short-sighted political leaders of the ethnic minorities have made language a captive of their drive to steadfastly maintain their communities’ ethnic and cultural specificities, thus reducing this segment of Malaysian society into hostile and belligerent little communal islands and enclaves in a Malay ocean. They view Bahasa Malaysia as the language of the Malays. And since hatred for the Malays is a key component of their chauvinism and bigotry, indeed the relevance and very survival of their political parties, it has become necessary to hate and disown the National Language as well. Yes, the better-educated among them would argue for the importance of English as the international language of commerce and education, but in actual fact these racists are bent on elevating other foreign languages – including Mandarin, the national language of China and not the native language of the ethnic-Chinese citizens of Malaysia – to countervail the status of Bahasa Malaysia in this country. The provocative decision by the DAP government of Penang to erect multilingual signages in that state is a manifestation of this divisive racist agenda. Try this stunt anywhere else on earth and see what happens.
———————
Kinda confused doncha think? Malay-centric but thinks he’s Malaysia-centric, love the multi-racial sports teams of yesteryear but can’t stand other races today. What takes the cake is his labelling of all non-Malays as criminals in one way or another – from going against the Royals and the Constitution by not being proficient in Malay to being pimps, drug pushers and corrupters of the nation…
churchmouse
December 11, 2008
Perhaps KC Cheah finds to be humorous Demi Negara’s dig such as this one: “We Malaysians hope Ms. Kok would refrain from further instigations. Cukup lah. There are enough nuts out there to spoil your day. Baiting them to do stupid things is downright foolish. Now, finish your dog food and move on.”
http://deminegara.blogspot.com/2008/09/polis-boleh-siasat-ka.html
Gadfly
December 11, 2008
I find it quite surrealistic to read Demi Negara’s article. At first, I thought I am reading Hitler’s or Heinrich Himmler’s writings, especially with the chilling cry of ‘Hail Hitler!’. Suddenly, I recover my senses and am back to the 21th century Malaysia’s ‘Kudos to Mukhriz Mahathir’.
Demi Negara(DN)uses all types of abstract concepts just to conceal his motivation of cultural genocide. Vernacular schools are ‘throbbing cancerous tumour’ that need to be annihilated or cleansed. When these schools are demonised, the next thing is to wipe them out. They are seen as a threat to the hegemony of the supremacy of the Bahasa Malaysia language. Hitler used the supremacy of race to create the Holocaust.
His language is filled with malignant aggression towards ‘the other’, the drop-outs, the social outcasts like what Hitler categorised the Jews, the communists, the social democrats, the unionist, the gay, the mentally ill and the physically disabled. They are ‘lifelong socio-economic burdens’ and ‘social roadblock’.
With the biased cultural filters, he is incapable of appreciating any arguments articulated by those who aspire to preserve their cultural identity. That is why he is ignorant of other perspectives.
He does not hide his militant and sadistic absolutism or fundamentalism. We do not know what make him to be what he is now. But, one thing is sure, that his ideas need to refuted and exposed for what it really is.
mat jusoh
December 11, 2008
I believe Demi Negara is Umno’s plant and of course, on the guise of discussion, he is planting hatred , especially in the Malay readers’ mind.
I read a response in his blog where this guy says that whenever he stops at any RnR he will check to see if the shop owner is a Malay or Chinese and he will not buy from the Chinese shopkeeper . He became consciously racist after reading Demi Negara’s articles.
Real sad.
mat jusoh
December 11, 2008
This is the comment I came across:
”
Omong said…
KijangMas Dear
I have consciously started checking out whether the shop owner is Malay or Chinese when I stopped at the R&R along the highways.
I was about to pay for my purchase when I realised the cashier is Chinese. I put back my tidbits and went over to the other shop where the workers are Malays and purchased from them.
The reason I went in to the first shop was because the shop is really stocked up with a lot more variety of goods.
But who cares? I will support Malay enterprises from now on.
I also have to be extra observant to note that Malay workers may be working for Chinese owners.
December 10, 2008 11:31 AM “
shar101
December 12, 2008
Thank you, EWO, for providing excerpts of DN’s writings here for further review.
There’s no doubt in my mind that DN constitute one of the better writers in content presentation within Malaysia’s blogosphere (compared to the likes of Surind/Mahaguru58.. eewwww) but then again, that’s the potential danger, isn’t it? Much like how the MalaysianInsider has become a leading online newsportal with their ‘breaking news’, sometimes without by-lines, which ironically is anathema for MSM agencies.
Anywayz, if readers care to read DN from the very beginning i.e. Sept 08 (and there are ‘only’ 15 postings thus far), you might be able to ‘profile’ his (her?) intent. Add to this, DN’s choice of blogroll names which consist predominantly of malay-centric bloggers.
Personally, I think DN is evolving and you have to juxtapose his writings against what’s happening in real life (or UMNO politics). As EWO has elucidated, if DN joined hands with his non-malay brethren previously, why stop now? What about national reconciliation for Malaysia’s sake? Is this a classic case of getting older but no wiser?
As some might want to preserve history for what it’s worth, I’d rather create history. And to live life, not just exist as a historical footnote.
Much like what Haris Ibrahim is trying to achieve although I’ve been saying that it’ll be an uphill task without melayu inclusiveness.. hehehe!
And KC, wanna go ‘fishing’ and get a chance to exchange thoughts, ideas, opinions? You’d be surprised at the diversity available.
P.S. Aiyaah Helen! Why you put my full name mah? Now my boss at Peace Hill is gonna give me an earful lah.
Voren
December 12, 2008
Wow, you people are Demi Negara obsessed or what?
On one hand you ridicule him; on the other hand you can’t get enough of his writings and ceaselessly talk about this mysterious “KijangMas” scribe all over the blogosphere. The X Blogs even has a dedicated Anti Demi Negara forum page!
This “Eyes Wide Open” character actually foraged thru that blog to create yet another composite picture of Demi Negara’s philosophy. Why? Who cares! Can’t get enough ah?
You know what? You people are just another group of Demi Negara junkies — but you just can’t admit it.
If you have no affinity at all to that blog, just ignore it lah. There are thousands of SoPo blogs in Malaysia. 99% gets ignored. Demi Negara and Che Det tops the billing among that one percentile. What does that tell you? No. It’s because many people are closet Demi Negara and Che Det junkies, reading viewpoints they love to hate in some kind of perverse sado-cybermasochism.
I challenge the readers here to cease talking about Demi Negara from this point onwards. Enough!
Vorennisch
Ron Jeremy
December 12, 2008
To Eyes Wide Open, thanks for introducing Demi Negara’s writings to me. A breath of fresh air indeed.
Oh, what was your point anyway? I think what he/she said (in your sampling) MAKES SENSE. I can relate to his message. So am I another ultra-rightist bigot as well? And most of my friends feel that way too. We are all bad people as well now? Judged by who? Blur lah kawan-kawan …
And Helen Ang, thanks for the link. BTW, why provide a link and promote a blog you “hate”? Blur again …
Anyway, what’s the fuss all about? Imagine a world if all bloggers sound like or mimic Haris? Boringlah!!
We need a tenacious hard hitter like Demi Negara to spice our SoPo read.
Voren
December 12, 2008
“Mat Jusoh” – we think you are actually a DAP hack planted by Unker Lim.
So you and DN are about even now.
Seriously, I can’t tolerate people who revert to the “planted moles and bots” story whenever they find it hard to rebut an opposing point.
Don’t be so ignorant lah. Every mutt who took the trouble to blog will have an agenda. Che Det has his agenda. RPK has his agenda. DN has his/her agenda. Heck, my bud Haris himself has his agenda. And these agendas correlate to political viewpoints from across the spectrum of our political landscape, from Hindraf to Dong Jiao Zong to PAS.
But how come only those correlating to UMNO are labelled “planted cybertroopers” while the blatantly bigoted pro-DAP chauvinists are revelled as noble dissenting voices?
Would it be fair if Haris is accused of being a DAP plant? He is DN’s mirror image, but why only the “other side” gets tagged as a “planted” cyberwarrior?
Vorennisch
Eyes Wide Open
December 12, 2008
KC/Helen
It’s official.
My non-partisan, non-racial comment on Demi Negara’s blog was NOT approved. You can read it on my blog under “Where to, Malaysian education” to see whether it warrants censorship.
KC, think strategically. Don’t be naive…Demi Negara has an agenda and he only allows postings that will forward his agenda.
The only reason why Demi Negara allows non-Malay bigots’ comments to be published is so that his point that ALL non-Malays are racists and out to get the Malays is proven right!
He will not answer reasoned arguments that is not racist in nature, as in the case of my post.
Hartal MSM
December 12, 2008
UMNO PLANTS
___________
Thank you Mat Jusoh for your tip-off. Your suggestion gave us an idea and we checked out Dr Mohd Khir Toyo’s blog on his debut.
http://www.drkhir.com/2008/03/wadah-sebuah-perjuangan.html
Titled “Mohon Cadangan Sahabat Bloggers”, Khir’s first posting on March 30, 2008 elicited 737 Comments.
We looked at the first 20, their blogger’s profile and excerpted the comment:
(1)*Alan – The Blogger Profile you requested cannot be displayed – “good now that you’re willing to listen to the voice of the rakyat”
(2) Legit
(3)*LanoG – The Blogger Profile you requested cannot be displayed – “Diharap lebih ramai lagi pemimpin menggunakan saluran ini untuk mendengar luahan rakyat pada masa hadapan”
(4) Legit
(5) Linn – has 14 blogs
(6) Legit
(7) Legit
(8)**Zekane – On Blogger Since March 2008 – “dengan segala pencapaian dan usaha Dr selama mmerintah negeri ini adalah sumbangan yg tidak akn mudah dlupakn oleh rakyat yg sentiasa mnyokong Dr dari belakang”
(9) Sumpittsauber (claims to be 82 years old in his profile but his Namewee-ish photo on the homepage is the hippest and youngest looking octogenarian I’ve ever seen; cute prank but legit)
(10)**Tarmiar – On Blogger Since March 2008 – “Selamat maju jaya YB Dr.Khir”
(11) Sebol – has 7 blogs
(12) BIG MYSTERY!! This guy ‘muhdfirdaus’ – On Blogger Since June 2008 – yet comment dated Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:31:00 PM MYT
(13) Mankuk Hayun – 19 blogs
(14) Legit
(15) Elegant noise – this one is a ‘shell company’, three blogs listed, two of which are empty and one having merely a single posting in Jan 2008
(16) Legit
(17) ‘DK’ – On Blogger Since January 2008 – this is Stephen Doss’ profile (a-ha!) and the other ‘team members’ cited are duds
(18)*Malaysiaseller – The Blogger Profile you requested cannot be displayed – “sukar kita nak lihat seorang penulis blog memulakan blognya terus mendapat sambutan hebat sebegini. Jadi teruskan menulis”
(19) Legit
(20) Legit
OUR FINDINGS
___________
Out of the 20,
– 3 were positive comments and *their blogger profile was unavailable
– 2 were positive comments and **profiles were created in March 2008, same period as Khir’s debut
– 3 were ‘professional’ bloggers listing 14, 7 and 19 blogs respectively which they administered
– 1 was a mystery with the set-up date not tallying
– 1 was a shell company, i.e. empty and not functional
– 1 was pseudonym ‘DK’, profile is Stephen Doss and dud team members
Overall, from the initial sampling, Khir’s kick-off commentators were urm… interesting, don’t you think?
We had another tip-off that some blogger profiles were created on the same date but we dinosaurs are not sure how to check. Can readers who are more tech-savvy give some pointers pls?
Hartal MSM
December 12, 2008
Oops,the url above was Khir Toyo’s sophomore posting. Debut’s comment section below,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3453891503510104639&postID=3575842700328722555
Hartal MSM
December 12, 2008
Vorennisch,
We just Googled you on Web search and Blog search. Your pseudonym does not turn up an entry at all. Is this the first time you’re using this nick online?
Hartal MSM
December 12, 2008
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!
_____________________
Vorennisch,
for someone who has left no digital footprints, you sure are on the ball with Web postings. Muchos gracias for giving us the lead to the X blogs page dedicated to Demi Negara.
http://thextalks.blogspot.com/2008/10/demi-negara.html
The link as above, as the entry & page as below:
Saturday, November 15, 2008
DEMI NEGARA
I know some of you must be mad at me for allowing “Demi Negara” to be aggregated on theXblogs, but as a self-proclaimed non-partisan animal, guess it’s only fair I should allow voices of both sides of the divide to be heard.
Admittedly, he is a good writer. But it’s pretty obvious who he (well, he wrote to me with a masculine name – ‘Sean Abrams’) is writing for and I was told he doesn’t allow any adversary or negative comments to be posted on his blog, I therefore decided to create this blog just so his foe, enemy, nemesis, detractor, dissenter, or just about any Anti-Demi Negara can post their comment, frustration, hatred etc right here.
___________________________________
Reader’s comment:
“Sean Abrams” is a remarkably un-Kelantanese name.
Yeah, weird. And Hartal MSM was under the impression that Demi Negara aka Kijang Mas was a Malay.
Hartal MSM
December 12, 2008
Haris,
Ha-ha-ha, ‘Ron Jeremy’ is so generic it turned up almost 3 million Google entries when searched. Since Ron and Vorennisch both posted their comments above at the ungodly hour of two-plus in the morning and 14 minutes apart, would you mind checking if their ISP IDs tally — one and the same?
Hartal MSM,
Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Eyes Wide Open,
I so agree that Demi Negara is dodgy. He sows hate and he promotes hate.
(A) Margeemar gave an alert on this comment targeted at Susan Loone:
http://margeemar.blogspot.com/2008/11/malaysiakini-being-used-to-instigate.html
“The way I see it… let these China and Keling go on poking. Sooner or later Melayu akan naik angin. I am waiting for the day too, and help in scapling. Red Indian style.
MRSM Kalae Chepo 66/73”
(B) The same pseudonym posted in,
http://deminegara.blogspot.com/2008/11/racial-polarisation-and-forging-of.html?showComment=1226417400000
Salute 110%.
It is sad that our atok2 dulu would consent on having Sekolah Cina & Sekolah Tamil to still exist on Tanah Melayu.
I praying that before my life is over, I could have the opportunity to chase these Cina-mari & Kalinga-mari into their boats back to where their atok2 mari dulu2. Gawd, do grant me this wish.
Otherwise, I do not see a solution, headche will persists; 51 years toooo late.
MRSM Kalae Chepo 66/73
Voren
December 12, 2008
Quote:-
“We just Googled you on Web search and Blog search. Your pseudonym does not turn up an entry at all. Is this the first time you’re using this nick online?”
What is it to you? What does this infer? Armageddon is near? You have a headache? You actually Googled someone’s nic and try to conceive conjectures based on the results? I think its time for you to get a real life with physiologic needs fulfilled out there. Seriously.
Wow! You people are desperate indeed. I was only passing through while doing research on Asian SoPo blogs but you guys here tops it. Paranoia galore.
Stepping on each other to do damage control on the irresistable backlash of the hitherto sleeping majority.
“Menggelabah” is the word.
Oh, you haven’t heard of comment “moderation”? It is the blog owner’s absolute right to moderate comments. You or I or any other third party have NO RIGHT to insist or to cry over our unpublished comments. Thats part and parcel of blogging lah.
Only the naive old folks complain about this. Malu lah.
RPK famously boasts (see YouTube) that he deletes 400-500 comments daily sent by “UMNO Cybertroopers.” So what if the other side deletes comments sent by the DAP stormtroopers and the PKR IsuzuTroopers?
This is part of the “game” lah.
Grow up! Otherwise how can you win!
Vorennisch
temenggong
December 12, 2008
I took a quick look at Demi Negara and it is a malay supremacist site. Why waste time with them? They are not interested in exchanging views or stick to history and the constitution.
Mahaguru’s posts are usually okay except when he writes on islam then he goes berserk and his views are appalling. We can conclude he knows nothing of islam inspite of his quotations, arguments, etc. There is nothing for us to educate him except that he has to change his attitude first. It does take some time though. In the years to come he will be regretting his past views.
We cannot be expending our energies with useless discussions when there is no intention for a real exchange of views.
Kee Thuan Chye
December 12, 2008
I think Deminegara is just a polemicist. And his statements at times are therefore quite sweeping. I’d wager that if we talked to him person to person, he’d sound somewhat different.
It is the nature of polemicists to take an issue and argue for it like hell, sometimes regardless of other factors. And the arguments have, naturally, to be one-sided. But this attracts people, especially like-minded ones. It’s like how those who are anti-George Bush, myself included, are attracted to the polemics of Michael Moore. He reaffirms what I think of that dolt.
I don’t have the stomach to read Deminegara’s blog. The first time I did, I became greatly disturbed. There was sense in SOME of the things he said, and there was also strong negative sentiment. I put it down to his lack of control of his writing ability (I won’t call it “skill”) and his poor grammar. And also his lack of control of his emotions. He may appear to be reasoned but he’s actually not (in his writing).
However, that wasn’t the thing that disturbed me. What really did was the slew of comments from his readers agreeing with his views, however vitriolic and distorted some of these views might be. And to top it all, many of them were educated Malays.
This discovery disheartened me for days. I thought to myself that if educated Malays really believed in some of the things expressed by Deminegara, there would not be much hope for a truly multi-racial Malaysia. It almost made me give up. In light of this, what point would there be in continuing with the struggle to bring about a nation in which, to paraphrase Raja Nazrin, every citizen would have an equal place in the sun?
So I don’t go to Deminegara’s blog any more. I think that works well for me. And it might work well for others too. Let people have their say. Let them be. For no matter how hard you try to argue with them, the more that will reinforce their beliefs. And the more you draw attention to them, the more important they’ll become.
If you have the stomach to read Deminegara, by all means do so. That blog could actually give you an idea of what educated Malays think, and that in itself might have some value. Otherwise, stay away. This country is big enough for a universe of ideas.
shar101
December 12, 2008
Well, well, whaddaya know.
There seems to be a team effort from DN showing up here.
Helen, didja notice how prompt Voren aka Vorennisch aka Ron Jeremy (God bless da real Percy) responded to your rejoinder. Another no-lifer with slow typing skills (hey, this bloke took 10 minutes to type out da game plan). With lotsa ‘offense is da best defense’ posturings to boot. And sharing same IP ID (thanks, Haris).
The HartalMSM team rocks, OK. You too, EWO.
Now, I’m wondering if KC is for real. Guess the fishing trip is off, for now.
P.S. Haris, some ppl out there hate your guts. Yer getting mentioned in the same breath… errrm.. paragraph with the likes of LKS, AI, etc. See yer tonight, bro. Apparently, I’m a two-legged GPS gadget that K can’t travel without.
shar101,
Catch you tonight, bro.
Fishing after?
Helen Ang
December 12, 2008
KC Cheah,
I’m curious…
You comment that you “marvel at the tenacious, intellectually inspired sparring of both sides” & you’ve had enjoyable sparring sessions with Demi Negara.
If you’re so familiar with the blog as to wax lyrical, why did you write this “He/she welcomes dissent” when readers know that from the get-go, the blogger has portrayed himself as masculine?
Or do you know something we don’t?
farida
December 12, 2008
DN is, I think, a Sean Haggity wannabe/copycat aspiring to take on the might of an M1 Abrams tank, said to be the best in the world.
I think Temenggong and Kee Thuan Chye are so right.
Folks, let’s move on to building up this country.
farida
December 12, 2008
Oops!Spelling error! It’s Sean HANNITY, said to be ” the most vile and dangerous racist in America. ”
Never mind, we’re moving on.
Helen Ang
December 12, 2008
Haris,
Double bingo!
Don’t you just lurrve Google?
Anyway, I Advanced Googled and found out that this thread is the first time that ‘KC Cheah’ has ever commented in People’s Parl. The capitalization below to highlight is mine (as I dunno how to bold).
Anyway, this KC Cheah wrote that we took the trouble “to create a COMPOSITE PICTURE of that blog’s leanings”.
And Voren (Vorennisch) wrote: “This “Eyes Wide Open” character actually foraged thru that blog to create yet another COMPOSITE PICTURE of Demi Negara’s philosophy.”
Compare with KC writing on Demi Negara: “HE/SHE welcomes dissent.”
Voren: “DN has HIS/HER agenda.”
So this guy Voren who claims he is doing research on SoPo blogs is, just like KC, seemingly ‘uncertain’ over Demi Negara’s gender when any reader knows that Demi Negara has portrayed himself as a man.
KC wrote: “the TENACIOUS, intellectually inspired sparring of both sides — unmatched in any other blog anywhere. That explains his popularity”
Ron Jeremy wrote: “We need a TENACIOUS hard hitter like Demi Negara to spice our SoPo read.”
Now Haris, you’ve revealed that both Voren and Ron sent their comments from the same ID. But they have two different personas: Voren is familiar with Demi Negara whereas Ron claims: “To Eyes Wide Open, thanks for introducing Demi Negara’s writings to me. A breath of fresh air indeed.”
Curiouser and curiouser.
‘Two’ ? users on the same computer within 15 minutes in the witching hours of morning – and one who makes as if he’s never read Demi Negara before until introduced by Eyes Wide Open. Or one split personality?
And curiousest. You did say KC Cheah has the same ID as Voren and Ron? Aww, shucks! 3-in-1 dedicated Demi Negara fans, how sweet.
Guess what? Voren writes here: “RPK famously boasts (see YouTube) that he deletes 400-500 comments daily sent by “UMNO Cybertroopers.” So what if the other side deletes comments sent by the DAP stormtroopers and the PKR IsuzuTroopers?”
And whaddya know … Over at the Demi Negara blog, the original recipe, the blogger-Man himself posted, “We Malaysians look forward to reading the 500-600 daily comments sent by Malays that gets “moderated away” by MT (in the words of RPK no less).”
This same theme is pursued in Demi Negara’s other postings. It’s really grabbing to see the train of thought and expressions replicated.
Oh yeah, and Demi Negara overuses the word ‘junkies’ too.
So when KC Cheah = Vorennisch = Ron Jeremy id = who ?? else … tells us Demi Negara “whacks the UMNO hacks as hard as the DAP bigots”, what are we to think? Believe him?
Note that in this entire People’s Parl page here, the word ‘bigot’ has been attached by this multiple ID commentator specifically to Chinese and DAP (his Freudian slip?)
Reflect on Kee Thuan Chye’s comment: “However, that wasn’t the thing that disturbed me. What really did was the slew of comments from his readers agreeing with his views, however vitriolic and distorted some of these views might be. And to top it all, many of them were educated Malays.
This discovery disheartened me for days. I thought to myself that if educated Malays really believed in some of the things expressed by Deminegara, there would not be much hope for a truly multi-racial Malaysia. It almost made me give up.”
See how on top of sowing hate, Demi Negara has deeply demoralized?
Thanks Eyes Wide Shut for your help and all the rest of you guys for your support and comments.
Ball in your court, Boss.
Helen Ang
December 12, 2008
My typo last para … ‘Eyes Wide Open’. Thanks again. You have good instinct.
temenggong
December 12, 2008
The umnomalays thought they had sewed all things up with legislation, control of the bureaucracy, uniformed services, judiciary, election commission, gerrymandering, obfuscating of history and the constitution, and lastly the ‘foreclosing’ Article 153 for the Agong to save their asses in case all things falls apart.
But god had other plans.
It never occurred to them that malays themselves will outgrow umno and vote against BN, the rulers would not stand with them, all their carefully cxrafted formulas did not work and everything would begin to unravel.
This is what happened, and they cannot digest it, and so issue such drivel in their blogs.
Well I have more news for these folks; shariah courts are ultra vires the constitution, and, parliament cannot legislate away its legislating responsibilities to another person. We simply await an honest and upstanding judge to rule so.
Eyes Wide Open
December 12, 2008
hey ronnie
chill man. check my post.
I never labelled Demi Negara or anyone else as “ultra-rightist bigot”, that’s only your assumption of my views of him. I merely stated what was evident in his postings – Malay-centric and intolerant of other races. If you agree wholeheartedly with his writings, then you agree with his worldview. if you think that worldview deserves to be labelled as “ultra-rightist bigot”, that’s your choice.
Me? I don’t want to fight. I want to engage. That’s why my blog is called Eyes Wide Open, so we can try to see all sides of everything.
There are a few points raised by Demi Negara that I agree with. That’s why i chose to engage him by commenting on his post. Unfortunately he chose not to publish my comments. Really, read it on my blog to see if it warrants censorship.
Because i don’t believe in blind support, propped up by flimsy fabricated arguments. I don’t believe in zero-sum games and I support issues, not people. I would rather find points of convergence where we can work on, rather than blast away at anything and eveything that I deem is not 100% similar to me.
For example, I support Mahathir for his Look East policy so that we don’t glorify anything Western. I don’t support HINDRAF’s international smear campaign, although I am sympathetic to their sufferings. I don’t support Dong Jiao Zong for their ridiculous threat to hold mass demos. I support Lim Kit Siang’s efforts to bring accountability to Parliament. I don’t support Nazri’s and Karpal’s flippant dismissal of the Ruler’s statements to restore their immunity.
Am I confused? I don’t think so. I think I have my eyes wide open (at least I hope so!)
Are you confused? Well that, I can’t help…
Izzshah
December 12, 2008
If you guys want to bash deminegara then do so at his/her blog la… don’t be cowards and just ‘baling batu sembunyi tangan’ here …. pathetic..
temenggong
December 12, 2008
I forgot to add: these two dungus are so vociferous about Bahasa Malaysia, yet they maintain their blogs in english!!
Can we take these persons seriously as intellectuals?
Voren
December 13, 2008
Ni Hao. Zao Shang Hao!
Hey people, read this piece in the Malay Mail.
So how?
Vorennisch
Voren
December 13, 2008
To the visually challenged Unker and Antie, click on the word “this” above.
Xia Wu Hao!
Hartal MSM
December 13, 2008
Voren aka Ron Jeremy aka KC Cheah,
Have read the link you posted. Congratulations.
Oh btw, Voren, when you were masquerading as KC Cheah you wrote above, “He whacks the UMNO hacks as hard as the DAP bigots”.
Guess what we found at this blog, http://thextalks.blogspot.com/2008/10/demi-negara.html
“This guy whack both sides, calling the UMNO people “lazy lanuns with rusty kerisis on tongkats” or something like that and also whack the DAP/PKR/PAS people” posted by a commentator calling himself KC Lim.
If I were your father, I’d be deeply hurt that you repudiated your Chinese family surname. But then, your Voren and Ron Jeremy personas are fake racial identifiers too.
And Voren, not only do you like using the word ‘junkies’ just like Demi Negara, you also share his spelling quirk of ‘Unker’… copycatting your idol?
LipanBara
December 13, 2008
It’ll like the stork inviting his friend the fox to dinner Izzshah.
They would rather play safe. They will never go I guarantee you.
Eyes Wide Open
December 13, 2008
Izzshah,
the only people baling batu here are the deminegara supporters. those are the ones who are so upset that ppl here don’t agree with his views.
I already posted a comment there which was not published. obviously because it does not help his agenda as it was a non-partisan and non-racial opinion piece.
Voren,
You expect ppl to be impressed that deminegara was praised by the discredited, pro-BN MSM? And one that has been on the verge of bankruptcy several times due to lack of readership, at that?!
Haha!
You MUST be an UMNO kutu!
one
December 14, 2008
@Temenggong
If he wrote in Malay, will you ever be able to finish reading at least one article from his blog?
The writing in English is catered for non-malay readers as I am sure most of them are not able to read and understand the message he is trying to preach if he is to write in Malay..
Do give him a visit at his blog. I am sure he will welcome you with open arms. Don’t criticize him here like a coward.
shar101
December 14, 2008
Nice try, Voren. The MM giving DN a leg up with a superlative title.
Sooo… is the MSM advocating anonymity as well?
What’s next? A spot at RTM’s BlogTV wearing a ski mask?
—————————————————————————————
One, in your effort to be civil, you’ve only managed to do otherwise.
farida
December 14, 2008
1. Izzshah,others like ‘Eyes Wide Open’ have said they wrote in DN’s blog but he doesn’t give them the space to be read. That means censorship of those with differing views and what is left is a public relations exercise, a massaging of his own ego.
2. I couldn’t help but go back to viewing DN’s rantings and interestingly, this is what I read, among others :
“These racists, bigots and cyber-misfits hide
behind their anonymity to flood Malaysia Today
with venomous racist postings, instigating
hatred for the Malay majority, ridiculing
Islam, and spewing seditious spins to
various national issues.”
Demi Negara HIMSELF IS HIDING BEHIND HIS ANONYMITY TO FLOOD blogosphere WITH VENOMOUS RACIST POSTINGS, INSTIGATING THE MALAY MAJORITY TO HATE the other races and moderate Malays as well, and SPEWING SEDITIOUS SPINS TO VARIOUS NATIONAL ISSUES.”
My, my! There are none so blind as those who will not see that as they point one finger at others, four are pointing back at them. This is a tried and tested method to ascertain the level of hypocrisy one has attained.
So why isn’t DN man enough to show up like RPK, Haris, Din, Malik Imtiaz, Zorro etc. who do not hide their identities , who continue to write and speak about what they believe in and are willing to take the brickbats that come their way. With them, what you see is what you get.
Not so DN. Man (Human species) or mouse? To not be honest about who he is, to continue conjuring up some freakish creature of many names – Voren aka Ron Jeremy aka KC Cheah- is juvenile behaviour. The rage of DN especially with regards to Teresa Kok reminds me of a psychopath. Easy to say what he says because he hides behind a cruel cloak of anonymity.
DN can continue to stay juvenile, receive accolades for his showy use of the English language, continue to win a racist fan following or he can choose to grow up, be a man and engage in honest discourse where face matches voice.
kula
December 14, 2008
Helen Ang,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can throw away your whole analysis above, and i will tell u why. .. You were dupped by good ol’ Harris.. WordPress does now allow you to look at poster’s ID. Poor helen wrote a long winded comment based on a lie.. lol.. how do i know ah? aiya..sign up for wordpress la..its free.
kula,
Don’t know which wordpress you are using, but the wordpress I use has disclosed your ip.
Ron Jeremy
December 15, 2008
You darn hypocrites!
“farida” – aren’t YOU not anonymous?
“shar101” – aren’t YOU not anonymous?
“eyeswideopen” – aren’t YOU not anonymous?
“Hartal MSM” – aren’t YOU not anonymous?
“Temenggong” – aren’t YOU not anonymous?
“Helen Ang” – aren’t YOU not anonymous?
Based on the logic of the anonymous “farida”, you anonymii “… can choose to grow up, be a man [and woman?] and engage in honest discourse where face matches voice.”
So you yourselves are just a bunch of faceless anonymous cowards as well uh? Why then compel DN to disclose his/her identity when you YOURSELVES are anonymous?
These anonymous nics are probably the work of one lonely psychopath who languish in his dungeon to googlebate him/herself to his/her conclusion that common usage of words/terms across different blogs and timelines implies a common author.
Wow!!! Paranoia supreme!
Folks, these freaks (or perhaps ONE freak) give me the creeps …
farida
December 15, 2008
Dear Ron Jeremy,
I am not anonymous. I am Farida. I have revealed myself time and again on PP, stated facts about myself, comment as Farida and written articles and taken responsibility for what I say by giving my byline.
I am a known face (meaning ‘recognisable’, not ‘well-known’) at past public events where I helped out with carrying chairs, getting food, registering people.
I know who Shar is, who Helen is , who is in Hartal MSM. They have all gone public. They have no anonymity.
I brought up anonymity because DN lambasted others for hiding behind anonymity but he does the same. Isn’t that hypocrisy?
If he cannot see the truth about himself – that oftentimes he is the mirror image of what he condemns others for – then he is walking down a blind man’s alley without end.
And who are you Ron Jeremy alias… alias… alias… alias DN?
Why do you hide in the shadows? And what do you have to hide that cannot be brought out into the public gaze? A political agenda to discredit moderate Malays and other races and to boost the candidates your masters have earmarked?
Why will you not show up? Why do you rage when you can actually argue back logically?
You do see now that it is wrong of DN to point fingers at others when he himself is wading in the same murky water, don’t you? A pot can’t call a kettle black when both are boiling over on the same stove!
I rest my case.
shar101
December 15, 2008
Yo Fake Ron J,
You’re using a porn star’s name to post your comments here at TPP.
Who’s the schizo?
The HartalMSM team consisting of Haris, Helen and I (plus others who are not in this thread) has been in existence since prior to GE12. Our identities and faces are known to certain MSM journos/editors (and even the AllBlogs prez himself). We’ve had a PC in Feb ’08 advocating a boycott of the MSM prints for their BN/UMNO propaganda spins. Our initiative continued because we are also aware that YOU are now crawling around in cyberspace.
And yes, some of us are tech savvy enough to use ‘tracking’ software to ferret out the creeps (pun intended). Take note, Kula.
Do you honestly think there weren’t any ‘backroom’ analysis between us before we responded?
Btw in deference to the Malay Mail NJ Ahmad’s article on a ’24 karat’ blog, perhaps DN is still failing miserably to reach out to some sections of the malay demographics if you care to read –
http://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2008/12/14/lifefocus/2798304&sec=lifefocus
Flawed observation by the writer you might say but at least, real names were published as compared to NJA’s article glorifying a ‘breath of..- errmm.. fresh air’ blog despite the anonymity which, ironically, NJA is now trying to infer a neutral stance (Dec 12th comment in DN at 9.53am).
Speaking of ‘flawed’ methodology, the BMO (Buy Malay/Muslim Only) initiative taking root in DN (highlighted here by Mat Jusoh at 11.31am on Dec 10th) will be watched.. closely. That’s a promise.
Hmmm.. should I envisage Jill Kelly or Peter North coming up the driveway, RJ?
P.S. Please tell KC Cheah the ‘fishing’ offer is still on, will yer. No rod required. I’m the ‘hands-on’ type.
Gadfly
December 15, 2008
There is a huge difference between using pseudonyms and the faking of identities. It is baffling to know why anyone would want to fragment the self into multiple faked selves and distribute them into cyberspace. We do not really know then whether the impersonators are faked or real racist or more than mere racist. But one thing is sure, intellectual integrity is lacking.
Some of the key features of psychopaths or antisocial personalities are: ‘tendency to persistently disregard and violate the rights of others through a combination of deceitful, aggressive, or antisocial behaviour, with little or no sign of remorse.’But, many of them are quite ‘respectable’ when they hold high the banner of ‘In the name of race, religion and language…’ No one would think that they are cracko or nuts deserving to be placed in mental institution. So, what is normal and what is abnormal? Who would consider that a concentration camp guard is abnormal or a nut? Abnormality has very much to do with the culture the individual subscribed to. When there is a culture of immunity to violence and cruelty and rewards for doing so, there will be more everyday ‘psychopaths’ in that particular culture, though people normally do not call them as such.
Polemics are OK and can be quite entertaining to a dull life. But, when polemists hold power and have the delusion of an sanitized Utopian society, then their choice phrases are surgical and clinical – cleansing of ‘the other’.
Unker Yew
December 16, 2008
Shar101: Let’s see how good is your ‘backroom’ boys.
hartalmsm
December 16, 2008
Haris,
Unker Yew is one of the multiplicity of surrealism floating in the DN quadrant of cyberspace, and a few others have also commentated above.
You can take Unker Yew’s rejoinder to Shar as their throwing the gauntlet at People’s Parl.
Ron Jeremy
December 16, 2008
farida,
Can you pls define a “Moderate Malay” to us.
You and your kind seem to liberally throw this term around the blogosphere and its time you come with some parameters of what entails “moderation” in a “Malay.”
And is Lim Kit Siang a “Moderate Chinese”? Waythamoorthy a “Moderate Tamil”? Karpal a “Moderate Sikh”?
Thank you
Ronny
Sarasota, FL
Ron Jeremy
December 16, 2008
Hey Unker Yew,
These psychos here define you as “one of the multiplicity of surrealism floating in the DN quadrant of cyberspace.”
Wow!
Wait till Zazaland hears this. And what would be the reaction from Mat Cendana, Tam Dalyell, Sakmongkol, Apocryphalist, Balan Kumar and the rest of the DN motley crew?
Hoi, I thought you are just a rude little HK Bus Uncle SOB!
Incredible. These freakos astound me with their paranoia.
Bro Haris. Take care. You’re a good chap. We’ve met a couple of times at your regular joint. I’m the Mexican lookin’ kwailo with the thick mustache. But gotta tell ya, who are these weirdos occupying your blog? Why are they obsessed with this DN guy/gal?
Seriously, you need a fresh group of friends.
Be Safe
Ronny
Sarasota, FL
hartalmsm
December 16, 2008
Ron Jeremy,
On Dec 12 at 2:50am (comment above), you said “To Eyes Wide Open, thanks for introducing Demi Negara’s writings to me.”
Now a mere few days later, you holler to Unker Yew like he’s your old friend at Demi Negara’s blog & you know his character and background.
You also mention Zazaland, Mat Cendana, Tam Dalyell, Sakmongkol, Apocryphalist, Balan Kumar and the rest as if you’re familiar with the DN motley crew.
So can i take it that you were pretending —
faking it like the porn star (fictitious name you have assumed) as mentioned by Shar101 —
when only 4 days ago you made as if you had never ever come across Demi Negara’s writings before?
Hart Viges
December 17, 2008
shar101: the’backroom’boysthing,lielow,connectionsto acrossbridge,bad,agitation,UYleftmessage.
Ron Jeremy
December 17, 2008
hartalmsm,
So?
Was I talkin’ to ya? Who gave ya the permission to address me? Haven’t you heard of the word “courtesy” and “decorum”? How about “loser”?
Now get off my face!
What’s YOUR problem anyway? Why this constant need for attention from others who don’t give shit about you?
I think YOU need help.
Go get a LIFE you pathetic little freak ……
hartalmsm
December 17, 2008
Ronny,
Since you quoted our phrase “one of the multiplicity of surrealism floating in the DN quadrant of cyberspace”, we hold that it is you who first addressed us, and we rebutting.
Secondly, on the matter of Netiquette, Hartal MSM is a People’s Parl project. As such, we are the host and you are the misbehaving guest.
And for readers who prefer not to venture into the Demi Negara wayang kulit theatre, you can view in Ron Jeremy above a slice-of-life example of the “decorum” typically employed by the blogger Kijang Mas and his devotees.
Gadfly
December 17, 2008
Operating instructions for authoritarianism:
1) Create subject-object dichotomy
a)Categorise human beings into the polarity of I-the other or the in-group versus the out-group.
b)Whatever groups that you hate or wanting to dominate over or colonise, put them into the out-group of the-other
2) Create the absolute-relative dichotomy
Make race, religion or language as absolute. Absolute means no compromise, no moderation and no
uncertainties. Subordinate all powers and all relationships to the absolute.
3) Create a hierarchy or pecking order of human relationships. Marginalise the out-groups.
4) Breed self-mistrust in people so that they would surrender to the absolute by sowing seeds of hatred towards the-other via ideological conditioning.
5) Create the idea or the rule that the absolute is unchallengeable or unquestionable.
6) Create the optical illusion that history is deterministic and inevitable. Make obedience to the absolute of history a virtue.
In order to achieve the above, race, religion and language need to make into myths. Once the mythology of the absolute is accepted, the roots of authoritarianism could not be unmasked.
The worst sin of psychological tyranny is that people becomes parasitic to the false absolute. A human being becomes a thing, the other becomes a it.
Kee Thuan Chye says the polemicists ‘argue for it like hell’. I think it is equally important to argue against human beings becoming ‘its’.
shar101
December 18, 2008
Yer skipped your medication again, didya, Ronny boy.
—————————————————————-
Yo Haris,
I still need the e-mail info lah.
Eyes Wide Open
December 18, 2008
heh heh heh…
Ron Jeremy’s reaction is soooooo typical of the UMNOputras and their cronies. Look at ANY debate in the blogosphere. When these fellas can’t resist the force of an argument reasonably and logically pursued, they resort to a tried and tested formula:
1. Re-emphaise a point ad nauseam eaven though it has been discredited time and again
2. Feign taking to moral high ground, saying things like “OK, I’m not going to argue with you because you are no in my league” or something along those lines.
3. If opponents persist, they will question the credibility of their opponents.
4. When that doesn’t work, they insult their opponent’s ability to think and reason
5. If that doesn’t work, resort to telling their opponents to shut up and get lost
6. If THAT doesn’t work, they will disappear.
Don’t be surprised that Voren, Ron, Unker Yew, and his other aliases to disappear from this thread soon…
Have debated people like these in other forums before. They have nothing to offer to backup their arguments besides deep-seated prejudice disguised as intellectual discussion. When that prejudice is exposed and they are exposed for what they are, they have no more points to offer – so the insults begin la.
I suggest we just leave him alone la. Don’t cast pearls of wisdom to such ebings, they will not appreciate it. Instead they will turn around and trample you!
hartalmsm
December 18, 2008
Eyes Wide Open, Gadfly & all,
TO SUM UP:
___________
Vorennisch/Voren = Ron Jeremy/Ronny = Unker Yew = KC Cheah = KC Lim = other Anonymii
EWO,
We second your proposal to just leave him alone because over at Demi Negara’s blog & as Shar101 reminded, Mr Multiplicity — having skipped his medication — now has all the different voices in Kijang Mas’ head talking aloud to each other.
Any sane person would be visiting that asylum at his own peril.
Gadfly,
Also agree that his ideas need to be refuted and exposed for what they really are. This should be done at other blogs earlier sympathetic to Demi Negara which might have missed the Kijang Mas side-splitting show just unfolded here.
High five, guys!
We move on …
Gadfly
December 19, 2008
hartalmsm,
Before we move on, I would like to make one last comment and observation on your response in this post. If I am not mistaken, I sense that you hold certain views about people who are mentally ill. You use phrases like ‘having skipped medication’ and ‘any sane person would be visiting that asylum at his own peril’. If such views reflect your online discussion policy, you may want to examine or reexamine the issue of prejudices and discrimination against people with mental or physical disability. Perhaps,if not already, you may find that the struggle of freedom from political controls include freedom from social and cultural prejudices.
I do not wish to prolong the discussion further. This is for your consideration.
hartalmsm
December 20, 2008
Gadfly,
If you will go through this blog with a fine toothcomb, you will not find any prejudices from Hartal MSM group members against those with physical disability.
But yes, People’s Parl does discriminate against those with mental disability such as the S’gor Chief of Police who is handicapped in the Truth department, and others who have mental shortcomings such as Zul Nordin and the rest of the politicians who have headlined this blog’s postings before.
As to why “any sane person would be visiting that asylum at his own peril”, we share your alarm that Kijang Mas’ language at Demi Negara “is filled with malignant aggression towards ‘the other’, the drop-outs, the social outcasts like what Hitler categorized” of the Germans who were eradicated in the Holocaust — deriving from that country’s collective temporary insanity in WWII.
We are alarmed when we see vile public expressions of irrational rants against minorities (the ‘Other’) gaining a foothold and following, because like you, we are reminded of how Hitler’s legendary rages caught the public imagination despite his lack of reasoning.
As Kee Thuan Chye pointed out of Demi Negara, his vitriolic blog is replete with one-sided, one-viewpoint-only polemics.
And as you yourself have said, such ideas need to be refuted and exposed for what they really are.
Thank you.
Panglima
December 22, 2008
It’s really fun and amusing to see you folks here – shar101, hartalmsm, helen etc getting all worked up by Demi Negara and KijangMas!! On the one hand you say “he’s small”… But your comments show otherwise – he has gotten on your nerves, eh? And he makes your hero RPK sound like such a little guy! Ah, and anyone – especially the newspapers – who does not praise RPK is “one-sided”, eh? Haha! Hypocrites!
Ron Jeremy
December 22, 2008
Ahaa, cracks in the rabid anti-Malay travelling circus here …
Or perhaps “Gadfly” is yet another piece of cyber surrealism concocted by the Goebbelist forces of UMNO?
Well, when you live on a heavy dose of delusional paranoia tinged with illusionary grandeur like the likes of “farida” and “hartalmsm” and their multiplicity of personalities here, everything’s possible.
BTW, this EyesWideOpen character is a darn liar in need of attention. Rebrowsed DN’s site and saw TWO of this guy’s comments published in full, uncensored, unmolested. PLUS also read the two long, long rebuttals by DN that demolished EyesWideOpen’s points.
So why cry to the world that he has been censored?
Weird.
As for Gadfly (if you really exist as a distinct entity from the the multiple multiplicities concocted by the crew here), your point below is poignant to me personally:-
“I sense that you hold certain views about people who are mentally ill. You use phrases like ‘having skipped medication’ and ‘any sane person would be visiting that asylum at his own peril’. If such views reflect your online discussion policy, you may want to examine or reexamine the issue of prejudices and discrimination against people with mental or physical disability. Perhaps,if not already, you may find that the struggle of freedom from political controls include freedom from social and cultural prejudices.”
Yes, I feel for you friend. My cousin (more like a brother really) up in Georgia suffers lapses of depression and restless anguish from his mental disability. He is o.k. mostly if he follows his medication and therapy. He is a gifted artist and a fun friend when he’s well. For this “hartalmsm” fellow to belittle my cousin and his fellow disabled with the cruel comments (just to spite some anonymous commenters over a third party blog) reflects the bankruptcy of your civilization and nullified whatever “hartalmsm” and this blog here stands for.
I’m still mulling over the thought of mentioning this extreme prejudice against the disabled and the downtrodden in other blogs as your society CANNOT tolerate this form of thinking against the defenseless by anyone, let alone by a group purportedly committed to justice and fairplay in Malaysian society.
If this happens here in the U.S., “hartalmsm” and his blog and crew would be history.
May your God have mercy on you.
Ronny
Sarasota, FL
Eyes Wide Open
December 22, 2008
Hello ronnie!
So you’ve been trawling DN for my comments? So glad that you find my insignificant points so alluring that you would dig it up from among the hundred or so DN comments in that thread after so many days! Hmmm…wonder why you would be so committed to finding my needle in his haystack since obviously you are so anti-Eyes Wide Open?
Another funny thing is that as at Dec 13 my comments had still not been approved on DN. But when I checked on Dec 19, it had been retrodated with approval dated on Dec 10th! Wonder who’s the liar in this case? And wonder why it had to be retrodated? Is it cos DN has been attracting so many brickbats here that he felt the need to respond? Is the exposure of his folly too much for him that he needs to cover his tracks? Is it that in so in exposing DN’s censorship he had to respond somehow…ronnie?
As to whether I’m correct in my assessment of his motivation, I reproduce DN’s exact words for your perusal:
——————–
Eyes Wide Open said:-
“Thanks for taking the time to rebut my post.”
Yeah, next time I don’t want you to go cry baby at other blogs and “report” that I’ve not published your comment and have been unfair, blah … blah … blah.
Listen Cikgu Mata Luas, when blogs are in Moderation mode, it is the absolute prerogative of the blog owner to publish/reject comments. You cannot demand that whatever crap you wrote be published. BUT in your case, it was published, but you chose to be a “hero” among the anti-national subversive blogs and go cry wolf over nothin’. Stop it!
—————————-
BTW, ronnie…regarding your proud claim that DN’s response demolished my points. I’m surprised you just made a claim but provided no sample of it to back up your assertion. Don’t la like that! Most people with some semblance of intelligence are sick and tired enough of UMNO’s “I-talk-you-listen-don’t-ask-details-cos-I-got-none-and-I’ll-look-stupid-if-I-try” kind of empty-vessel rhetorics without you jumping on the bandwagon! Or is it, you never got off it?
Anyway, I’ll just leave one verbatim sample for everyone’s perusal and you can judge for yourselves which one is the voice of reason
———————–
Eyes Wide Open said:-
“To say that vernacular schools are the source of racial polarisation is only addressing part of the problem. We cannot take such a simplistic approach in calling for the closing down vernacular schools “for the sake of national unity”.
Ok let’s see the inverse logic.
You are saying that vernacular schools are NOT a source of racial polarization in this country? No impact at all? The fact that our kids go to different schools taught in different languages have no bearing on the state of racial alienation in this country?
Wow!
So vernacular schools are absolved of all blame?
Who and what do you blame then? Ok, ok I know, I know … Blame it on the Malays, blame it on UMNO/PAS, blame it on … let’s see, ok, the fact that the sun rises from the east and Bears and Chipmunks hibernate in winter. What/who else to blame …… ok, blame it on Khir Toyo’s nose job. What the heck, blame it on the Negaraku, Keris, Wayang Kulit, Proton, the group of Kelantanese who blog.
Yeah, blame all of our society’s ills to everyone and everything else EXCEPT your kinds.
———————————
Here’s another choice morsel:
———————————
Eyes Wide Open said:-
“Take a drive to your nearest national schools. How many of them proudly display a huge sign at the front gate, saying: “SYABAS! Anda hadir di sekolah hari ini!” What? Congratulations simply for COMING to school? If they had said “SYABAS kerana menhadiri (sic) semua kelas hari ini” it wouldn’t have been so bad!”
Can you please show us a photograph of a Sekolah Kebangsaan with the EXACT words as above?
And what’s wrong with that? The sentence “SYABAS! Anda hadir di sekolah hari ini!” already intrinsically meant “SYABAS kerana menhadiri (sic) semua kelas hari ini” without actually stating that incorrect sentence structure that you concocted. See, your Bahasa Malaysia is so bad, you cannot even comprehend the message and nuance of the original “SYABAS! Anda hadir di sekolah hari ini!” and hence you feel a need to further granularise the original correct form to YOUR level of Bahasa Malaysia.
—————————–
Anyway, regarding the “SYABAS” signage, it’s pretty obvious DN has absolutely no idea what issues are facing Malaysian education today, and he would deem to insult my eyesight (or my literacy level) by implying that there is no such signages in school.
I am tempted to post half a dozen pix of such signages on DN (won’t be too hard a task since they’re just about everywhere) but then I’ll only be grunting with cro-magnons. I prefer talking to humans.
Anyway, I made an open invitation to DN’s junkies to visit my blog and debate there, but looks like they don’t have the testicular fortitude…
hartalmsm
December 22, 2008
Dear all,
Hartal MSM as a group vouches that Eyes Wide Open has been truthful in saying his/her comment was NOT approved when it was submitted on Dec 10, nor was it uploaded the days following.
The EWO comment was in fact only published on Dec 19 when Kijang Mas felt up to browbeating EWO using his advantage as moderator and blog administrator.
We have been monitoring the Demi Negara website closely and evidence from his cached page will reveal that Ronny is one who has MISREPRESENTED the situation when he claims to have “Rebrowsed DN’s site and saw TWO of this guy’s [EWO] comments published in full, uncensored, unmolested.”
Ronny @ Voren @ KC Cheah — pretending to be 3 different self-contradicting personae whilst commenting from the same IP — is a moral fraud who has faked his various identities and thus possesses very little credibility.
And this unethical character has the nerve to label Eyes Wide Open a “darn liar”?
Helen Ang
December 22, 2008
Ronny,
You refer to “the two long, long rebuttals by DN that demolished EyesWideOpen’s points”.
In your masquerade earlier here as KC Cheah, you commented that Kijang Mas/Demi Negara “welcomes dissent. But his meticulous replies, often more elaborate than the original postings themselves, would intellectually demolish the dissenting voices with well-thought out arguments and counterpoints.”
I, on the other hand, do see not see an intellectual in Kijang Mas. I see an all-consuming rage.
And no, he does not welcome dissent. Any reader can see the vicious, denigrating tone of his rejoinder to EWO [as per excerpt cut & pasted by EWO above and also contained in the other of Kijang’s “long rebuttal” – to quote your words].
Nor I do not see someone who, as described by you, “takes all comers with his witty rapid fire to-your-face style.” Witty? Hah! A thug who hits below the belt. I affirm it is true that Kijang Mas “retrodated” his moderation of EWO’s Dec 10 comment.
It is thuggish behaviour by Kijang Mas and his brown shirts in Demi Negara to have ganged up on Eyes Wide Open, a new blogger who is a teacher and possibly a woman.
I put my name to my comment unlike you who call yourself by a porn star’s moniker – Ron Jeremy. You are nothing more than a multi-pseudonymous Anonymii.
Is Kijang Mas man enough to take on Haris Ibrahim instead of gang-bullying EWO on your turf?
Eyes Wide Open
December 22, 2008
Hey, i don’t mind a litle gang-bang action! I’m game to take all comers. Again, only one condition – argue with intelligence. I got balls enough to carry my torch to the other side of the fence, instead of the DN cronies who are mere jaguh kampung, only finding their voices on his blog and those like it.
One of their commentators mention that maybe they should carry the fight to the enemy, but then backpedals and said that it would be a waste of time as “they have no bullets”.
Well, unlike those jaguh kampung, I accepted DemiNegara’s challenge to make me his “special project” to “make me an anak bangsa Malaysia” and threw him a challenge myself – come and face me on MY blog!
temenggong
December 22, 2008
Good god,
This thread is still continuing after more than two weeks? And these late discussions does not even seem to relate to the topic at hand – free speech, etc.
‘one’ even commented on language versatility. Go on ‘one’, DN or whatever, gimme your best shot. I got an ‘A’ in Bahasa way back in ’74.
Inorder not to waste your time, I need to see some focus, intelligence and credulity before I’m engaged.
Sanjay
December 23, 2008
EWO: “Another funny thing is that as at Dec 13 my comments had still not been approved on DN. But when I checked on Dec 19, it had been retrodated with approval dated on Dec 10th!”
and
Helen Ang: “I affirm it is true that Kijang Mas “retrodated” his moderation of EWO’s Dec 10 comment.”
Can you people here pls elaborate how one can “retrodate” a comment on blogspot.com?
The blog owner/moderator only has two options: Publish or Reject, with no capability whatsoever to alter the original time and day of the incoming comment. How can he/she “retrodate” an original comment without exposing his/her tampering for all to see?
Serious credibility issues here. And I sense a propensity towards slander and misrepresentation by those who oppose Demi Negara.
I suggest someone here demonstrate HOW a moderator could “retrodate” a comment in Blogspot.com while hiding the tampering process? Unless its a “copy-change date-paste” job which is obvious for all to see since it will just be another “post” sans the unique clickable “Blogger icon” privy only to the original commenter, in this case EWO, it is impossible to do such a thing and go undetected on blogspot.
The more I read the comments here, the less I trust the likes of Helen Ang, HartalMSM and their cohorts. I sense too much vengeance and hatred towards others. And too “clinical” with phrases such as “that blog is under our monitoring” or “cached records” and such. Who’s the Nazi party now? Why should we allow people like you to govern this country, with incessant monitoring and snooping and “googling” of our affairs?
Sanjay
December 23, 2008
Helen Ang: “Is Kijang Mas man enough to take on Haris Ibrahim instead of gang-bullying EWO on your turf?”
Enough lah. Nothing else to talk about is it?
Why do you people attack and attack an absent adversary? Someone mentioned “obsession” with KM and his DN blog here. I’m beginning to agree.
No point challenging KM when he is not here. Why don’t Haris hop over to KM’s lair and be “man enough” to take him on. Otherwise, just stuff it and move on pls.
We’ll be watching your moves on this.
tranung
December 23, 2008
“Is Kijang Mas man enough to take on Haris Ibrahim instead of gang-bullying EWO on your turf?”
Man..
Challenge him at his blog. No need to cry foul here..
I thought you guys are not concern with him. But it seems he managed to pull the nerves here..hurmmm. Silent majority on the wake. Watch out..
Make an official invitation to KM @ DN. And let Haris Ibrahim does it by himself I mean the invitation coz I think others are just like a pinch of salt for KM to entertain. I am sure he and his pahlawan are ready to take on you guys..
farida
December 23, 2008
Given the track record and propensity of Ronny and Co to twist the truth, to name-call, to make vicious pronouncements, to not engage in discourse in a befitting manner, seeking instead to revile and to belittle, to go off-course so often in the discussion, I think it is a waste of time responding to their outbursts.
Why give the time of day to those who refuse to have a fair discussion, who persist in turning everything into a racial issue?
DN is so predictable.
Can’t win an argument or follow the thread of a discussion? Insult the person.
Can’t hide his many-in-one character? Threaten.
That rejoinder to EWO is nothing but an outpouring of rage and hatred. When a person rages and hates, he is unhappy with the world, with his situation and most of all with himself! Bitterness is a poison that slowly kills the soul, can lead to manic depression and sometimes suicide. The major psychology books say so.
A pity DN doesn’t realise his lambasting and vitriol of EWO only serve to accentuate EWO’s dignity, maturity and finesse on the one hand and his petulance and childishness on the other.
Helen Ang
December 23, 2008
THE DEMI NEGARA ARGUMENTATIVE ITINERARY
_______________________________________
In my earlier comment, I said I do see not see “an intellectual” in Kijang Mas as claimed by KC Cheah @ Voren @ Ron Jeremy.
Some of our readers have taken the trouble to excerpt Kijang Mas from his own website to share on this page, and among other things the Demi Negara blogger has said:
“Now, finish your dog food” to Teresa Kok, and
describing the descendants of Chinese/Indian immigrants as “an unintegrated community of lawbreakers; a community infested by crooks and thieves and counterfeiters and pimps”.
Let’s just say the much vaunted ‘Demi Negara community’ is expressing themselves in a hardly impressive way.
WOW!!
_____
KC Cheah Says: Dec 10 (2:15am)
Wow you actually took d trouble to cull the 20-odd postings at DemiNegara to create a composite picture of that blog’s leanings?
Voren Says: Dec 12 (2:36am)
Wow, you people are Demi Negara obsessed or what?
Voren Says: Dec 12 (12:25pm)
Wow! You people are desperate indeed.
Ron Jeremy Says: Dec 15 (12:59am)
Wow!!! Paranoia supreme!
Ron Jeremy Says: Dec 16 (4:20pm)
Wow! Wait till Zazaland hears this.
*** KIJANG MAS responding to Eyes Wide Open:
Wow! So vernacular schools are absolved of all blame?
PARANOIA
________
Voren Says: Dec 12 (12:25pm)
I was only passing through while doing research on Asian SoPo blogs but you guys here tops it. Paranoia galore.
Ron Jeremy Says: Dec 15 (12:59am)
Wow!!! Paranoia supreme!
Ron Jeremy Says: Dec 16 (4:20pm)
Incredible. These freakos astound me with their paranoia.
PATHETIC FREAKS
_______________
Ron Jeremy Says: Dec 17 (2:24pm)
Go get a LIFE you pathetic little freak ……
*** KIJANG MAS responding to Eyes Wide Open:
Listen Cikgu Mata Luas, when blogs are in Moderation mode … You want to fight me, fight me HERE [in Demi Negara]! I’m not gonna swing my ekor pari and buluh betung in petty little kindergarten playhouses such as your favourite, Haris Ibrahim’s Malay Apologist nuthouse of 5 lonely pathetic freaks chatting anti-Malay folklore 24/7.
######
Conclusion: Not only does KC Cheah talk like Voren talk like Ron, they all three talk like Kijang Mas at Demi Negara … Birds of a feather?
hartalmsm
December 23, 2008
Sanjay,
You said: “The blog owner/moderator only has two options: Publish or Reject, with no capability whatsoever to alter the original time and day of the incoming comment. How can he/she “retrodate” an original comment without exposing his/her tampering for all to see?”
EWO’s claim is very simple. He/she submitted her comment on Dec 10, and stated:
On Dec 10, it was not published.
On Dec 11, it is not yet published.
On Dec 12, it is not yet published.
On Dec 13, it is not yet published.
On subsequent days, Hartal MSM did not see the comment published either.
On Dec 19, EWO finds that Kijang Mas has responded line by line to his/her comment.
Her comment submitted on Dec 10 appeared on Dec 19 but dated as originally Dec 10, and chronologically apprearing in the Dec 10 slot.
Kijang Mas at Demi Negara now claims: “it is the absolute prerogative of the blog owner to publish/reject comments. You cannot demand that whatever crap you wrote be published. BUT in your case, it was published …”
Yeah, it was, after 9 days.
In his case, he chose to first withhold, then elected to publish after he had prepared his rebuttal.
Nobody said he “tampered” with the comment. Nobody said he “altered” the comment — as you allege.
Would you mind reading EWO’s charge again, painstakingly, word for word before you run like a bull in a China shop?
hartalmsm
December 23, 2008
And oh Sanjay,
when you challenge “We’ll be watching your moves on this”, who else do you speak for as in the “we”?
izzshah
December 23, 2008
I still think that you guys need to bash DN at his blogs not here. I also think it is good that a blog owner responses to commentators in his blog (such as DN, jmd, haris etc.) so that the blog readers feel close to the blog owners. As DN is one of popular blogs (many comments), it will take sometime for DN to publish posts by his commentators. The way he rebuts his commentators, in a way can be a post itself. That’s why I think he took long time to approve the comments. What’s the problem if it took 1,2 or 9 days for your comments to appear? It will be good because it is with full rebuttals.
shar101
December 23, 2008
Folks,
Kijang Mas aka Demi Negara is playing a shell game i.e. using different nicks with different ethnic background to create the perception of popular acceptance as if to represent the ‘silent majority’, much like how Dubya duped the world that he has the international community behind him in the fight against terrorism.
Every name mentioned here (on behalf of HartalMSM and/or TPP) has a distinct face, identity and most are known to the blogging community in real life. Most are regular sopo readers/commentators/bloggers/activists who are also easily recognised as genuine participants in discussions at other prominent blogs and public forums.
The same cannot be said for the ‘newbies’ from DN appearing this thread who seem to suddenly proliferate with the single agenda of self-praising KM. Furthermore, none of them has responded to our (HartalMSM) contention that they are clones of KM himself. And there will be more of these ‘fraudsters’ coming out of the woodwork with some masquerading as ‘bona-fide’ bloggers.
I say Kijang Mas is an agent provocateur whose only purpose in setting up Demi Negara is to perpetuate divisiveness within the Malaysian society. He has no intention to engage constructively, will quickly resort to denigrating anyone who is not in sync and by virtue of his hiding behind anonymity, will lose any semblance of credibility soon enough.
In other words, a typical “Baling batu, sorok tangan” character in the same league of cowards.
—————————————————————————————–
Kesian EWO. Masih dok tunggu kehadhiran si-Kijang serta kuncu kuncu-nya. EWO dah buat dua posting mempersilakan si-Kijang berdebat.
http://notsleepinganymore.blogspot.com/2008/12/game-on.html
http://notsleepinganymore.blogspot.com/2008/12/game-still-waiting-to-startzzzzzz.html
Mungkin si-Kijang akan menjelma dan berbahas dalam bahasa Swahili kut?
Gadfly
December 23, 2008
hartalmsm,
Thanks for your response to my comments. Your efforts in challenging and exposing toxic ideologies is truly commendable.
Ron,
I find your comments rather confusing and puzzling. On the one hand, you have the empathic understanding of the suffering of the mentally ill and the defenseless, and yet on the hand you seem not to be able to share that same kind of understanding to what are the main issues involved here – the fight against malignant aggression towards the weak.
Your name calling of me as a piece of ‘Goebbelist of Umno forces’ is similar to a chicken seeing everything as a grain of rice to be pecked at. I know I am not a grain of rice,unless you have the delusion of a chicken.
As an ex-volunteer in a mental health association, I read that your writings show certain familiarity with the abnormal psychology of schizophrenia and the like. Words like paranoid delusions and and grandiose delusions are typical descriptions of symptoms.
I do not mean that the mentally ill are particularly dangerous as what the MSM frame them to be. in fact, Fuller Torrey, an American psychiatrist, once said that ” Most persons with schizophrenia are not dangerous at all, and I would far rather walk the halls of any mental hospital than walk the streets of any inner city.” (Surviving Schizophrenia,2001)
(Note: NAMI, the National Alliance of the Mentally Ill in US, has done much to help the mentally ill, Google it if need to).
You have not identified any evidence to substantiate your claim of ‘…rabid anti-Malay…’. You did not rely on logical arguments so that we can engage in genuine dialogue. Just creating a fictitious straw-man does not help. Worse still, the creation of multiple identities hinders genuine and sincere dialogue.
Anyway, I am still puzzled over which is your authentic self, the one with empathy or without, or both are true, except perhaps one with the sense of self is frozen in time. I am not here to tell people what is real. But, I can tell you that you casting of labels in an arbitrary way is not helpful to clarify language and thoughts. It serves only to prevent thought, and the truth.
Whatever it is, if it is in Germany or in US, I wonder whether DN’s writings would be judged as rabid hate speeches. I find ‘normal’ people are much more dangerous than the abnormal ones, especially those who have the superficial intelligence to occupy positions of power and authority and to camouflage their cruelty.
Balan
December 24, 2008
Coming back to this post after a long time.
My goodness, don’t you all have better things to do.
It’s always good to be honest, open and identified. Solves most of the problem. It’s ok to be contradictory in your statements/words at time. That’s what we are, our thinking can be split between good, acceptable and bad.
People, be a sport, why worry, just take it that we are not getting some honest visitors to this blog.
We can’t break the identity, can we.. they will be in denial, no matter how we argue and try finding all similarities. let’s move on..
EWO fanboy
December 24, 2008
Kijang-Demi-dearest,
That KC fella who portray himself “non-Malay” accuse this blog of “slandering” you — so quick he to jump into Haris Ibrahim & praise your intellectual barely a few hours after Helen Ang’s comment.
Now this so-called “Sanjay” fella also so so quick to scream “slander at those who oppose Demi Negara”.
For one supposedly “absent adversary” that Sanjay claim, you sure got helluva lot fans crowding Haris blog.
Sanjay twister-darling,
I don’t think-so Haris wanna go visit your Keris-House since Demi-dearest don’t have the “testicular fortitude” to drop by at EyesWideOpen blog to debate vernacular school issue.
You fellas all not interested in discussing education issues with EWO-CikguMataLuas lah, only interested in stabing your knives in people’s back here.
hartalmsm
December 24, 2008
Izzshah,
(1) YOU SAID: “I still think that you guys need to bash DN at his blogs not here.”
HARTAL MSM: Since Kijang Mas has shown himself to be an utterly unethical blog administrator, we do not see how our engagement with him will get a fair airing at Demi Negara.
(2) “As DN is one of popular blogs (many comments), it will take sometime for DN to publish posts by his commentators.”
EWO submitted his or her comment on Dec 10. Kijang Mas rebutted on Dec 20. In that interim of ten days, Kijang Mas approved 75 other comments while EWO’s was held back.
We agree it will take sometime to vet comments but why were seventy-five!! comments — which came later — published first?
(3) “The way he rebuts his commentators, in a way can be a post itself.”
The way Kijang Mas rebuts his commentators is to denigrate them by calling them (most recent sample below) “germ” and alluding to them as a smelly, “rotting carcass”.
Below is Kijang Mas’ response to EWO:
Voren dan kerabat DN sekelian,
Bagi saya, kuman halus macam si “Eyes Wide Open” yang kini terselit di tapak kaki saya ni tak penting.
Kan dia dah di binasakan tempoh hari? Dah hancur lebur. KijangMas tak pukul bangkai. Busuuuk!
Saya anggap budak hingus nih sebagai satu “projek” di sini. Kita akan sama-sama membentuk nya menjadi seorang Anak Bangsa Malaysia patriotik yang berwibawa dan berhemah serta memahami betapa pentingnya Bahasa Malaysia sebagai Bahasa Kebangsaan negara ini dalam proses membina sebuah masyarakat Malaysia yang jitu dan sehaluan.
Proses ini akan di laksanakan di sini, bukan di sarang nya.
(4) “What’s the problem if it took 1, 2 or 9 days for your comments to appear? It will be good because it is with full rebuttals.”
The problem is his moderating is unscrupulous.
Kijang Mas rebutted by rigging the match as he declares he wants to make a Malay-language “project” out of Eyes Wide Open.
He changed the rules of the game when he himself posted in English and turned around and demanded that EWO must comment only in Malay!!
But from EWO’s writing, we can see that he/she is already fluent in Bahasa Malaysia. The Demi Negara voices talking among themselves have a huge disconnect with reality.
farida
December 25, 2008
Shar101,
Spot on.
hartalmsm
December 26, 2008
Gadfly,
Thank you for understanding. We’re aware that you’re discerning enough to read between the lines and comprehend what’s going on behind the scenes at both sides — People’s Parl & Demi Negara.
We admit to not being empathetic. We were too focussed on our ‘mission’ and viewing Ronny’s lair as a type of Berghoff that we lost sight of those genuinely affected by mental disorders.
You’re right: It is ‘normal’ people camouflaging their cunning who are the more dangerous. Our mistake then to pander to societal prejudices, even if unthinkingly and inadvertently.
As such, your tactful rebuke earlier is appreciated, and again, thanks for sharing your experience.
Eyes Wide Open
December 26, 2008
hey guys,
DN’s at it again. This was my comment submitted on 23 December in response to voren’s unsubstantiated attacks, but no sign of it anywhere. Since I can’t get an audience for it on DN, I’ll post it here:
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saudara voren….
kalau tak kecut bola, sila ke blog saya berdebat.
Datanglah dan baca dengan mata terbuka sendiri pendirian saya tentang isu-isu pendidikan di Malaysia dan isu-isu yang selainnya. jangan saja menyalak di sini, menyerang posting saya tanpa mengetahui langsung pendirian saya dan tanpa memberi bukti kepada pembaca-pembaca yang lain.
Perbuatan anda ini setakat jaguh kampung sahaja – hanya berani di kalangan teman. Tetapi apabila dipelawa dengan hormat dan sopan, dihumban kembali pelawaan saya sambil menghina saya dengan kata-kata kesat. Melayu apa ni? Anda buat malu saja kepada kaum dan adat Melayu yang penuh sopan dan kehalusan!
Janganlah bersembunyi di sebalik alasan-alasan yang direka khas untuk mengelak dari berdepan dengan saya. Saya hanya blogger baru, kurang sebulan di bidang ini.
Tetapi saya berani berada di sini berdebat dengan saudara voren dan kalian lain. Dan saya juga pernah berdebat dengan saudara voren di blog Haris Ibrahim. Tapi di blog saya, bulu hidung hang pun belum nampok lagi. Sapo pengecut kang nih?
Justeru itu, saya ingin membuat pelawaan saya yang ketiga – datanglah ke blog saya dan berbincang secara rasional. komen di blog saya tidak dimoderatkan. Anda bebas untuk memengahkan hujah-hujah anda.
Dah saya kata, hujah yang logiknya tepat akan dibincang dan diterima. Hujah yang semata-matanya berdasarkan perkauman – apa yang nak dibincangkan lagi? Ini bukan tentang isu lagi, ini bukan perbincangan lagi, ini sentimen perkauman dan langsung tidak kena-mengena tentang isu perbincangan.
Oleh itu, hujah yang sebegitu tidak akan diberi penghormatan langsung – lalu respon saya ialah:
HAHAHA!
Kenapa tak kunjungi blog saya? Sudah 4 posting saya tentang isu pendidikan di Malaysia. Kenapa hangat-hangat menyerang saya di kampung DemiNegara tetapi takut sangat nak tengok dengan mata bulat sendiri pendirian sebenar saya?
Siapa takut? Siapa tak beretika? Siapa makan cili, dialah yang rasa pedas!
Eyes Wide Open
December 26, 2008
And this is my goodbye kiss on DN…boring la trying to engage them. After all that posturing, nobody does anything!
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Kijangmas, And where’s my hantam of voren? Aiyoo….publish my comment also too chicken ah? Want to visit my blog also so hard meh? I’ve been coming here for so many times, but none of you have the balls to come and comment on my page?!
Well, just to throw you a bone here since you’re all too chicken to even READ my blog…You’ve been claiming for weeks that I’m anti-Sekolah Kebangsaan. But I actually spent an entire posting arguing for a SINGLE NATIONAL SCHOOL SYSTEM! And this was before I was even aware of your blog (check my blog – I don’t retrodate my postings, unlike some blog owners)!
Come on man…show some testicular fortitude!
If the whole DN community doesn’t count two balls among the lot of you, then all bets are off la. I’m not gonna waste time debating two-bit pseudo-intelligences hiding behind some small writing skills and having to share testicles with each other. Especially people who are SO CHICKEN THAT YOU DON’T EVEN DARE TO FACE ME IN ANONYMOUS CYBERSPACE!!
This is one seriously syiok sendiri blog – strutting about when there is safety in numbers. But throw you a real challenge, what happens? Instead of responding like a real man, you CHICKEN OUT – HAHAHA! Anyway, if any one of you has the testicular fortitude, do debate me on my blog. Someone here actually said he visited, but kawan…WHY NO COMMENT ON MY BLOG? Why have to come back here to kampung halaman DN only comment? TOO CHICKEN KA to show your true colours to the world ka?
And I was so looking forward to some “intelligent” debate with you guys. I guess you UMNO-types are really all the same – foaming in the mouth with all sorts of racist rhetoric but having very little to show in terms of real substance in argument (best exemplified by Shabery Cheek)!! Race, race, race…tak muak ke?
Anyway, this will be my 4th and last invite. And until someone from DN shows some balls to take me on in serious debate, this will also be my last post here.
Meanwhile…I’ll leave you to enjoy your mental masturbations. I’m sure you’ll be having plenty of fun comforting yourselves that you’ve finally shooed me off DemiNegara.
Tata!
P.S. Yes…this post will also be featured on my blog along with Kijangmas’ previous comments. See, I dare to openly feature what you write, a courtesy you are obviously too chicken to return.
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Yes…it’s a bit harsh and rude. But I really got no patience for noisy pretenders…